BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jerald Cate on July 18, 2018, 08:11:21 PM
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I had an odd engine shutdown this morning and I'm hoping someone might shed some light as to why it occurred. I was backing into my parking spot, with tag axle up, and turning pretty sharp when all of a sudden the engine just shut off. I put the parking brake on and the transmission in neutral and the engine started right up. I continued parking with no further incident. This has never happened to me before and I find it disturbing I would lose power so instantly. This was an immediate shutdown unlike when I turn the ignition off and get about 1 second of engine running before it shuts down. Any ideas from the experts?
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Bruce,
There is no way to tell what your problem is without more information, but the most common cause for the condition that you described is the ignition solenoid that is located in your left front electrical bay. When you turn on the ignition switch, it turns on this solenoid, and it powers virtually every thing that is controlled by the ignition switch.
If your engine shutdown was caused by this solenoid, you would have lost power to other things that are powered by the ignition switch, and a drop in the dash gauges would have been noticeable if you were watching. Sometimes the loss in power is momentary, but long enough to kill the engine, and sometimes it will not come back until you cycle the ignition switch.
If you replace your ignition solenoid, only use a continuous duty solenoid with at least an 85 amp rating. These solenoids fail so often that I always carry a spare.
Gerald
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Jerald, take it we are talking Caterpillar C-12 Engine. If this happens again your problem is a fuel related. There is a check valve in the secondary base that over time causes immediate shut down
and off and on hard starting. There is a caterpillar service bulletin on this and I can provide the
Information on problem and Caterpillar part number. Dave Atherton Retired Cat mechanic
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Dave, I have a C12 serial number 2KS28227 in my 2000 Marquis Amethyst would this Cat service bulletin also cover my engine year?
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Pat, yes it does and I will get information for This Caterpillar Service bulletin and part number
and will see if Steve Huber can post this on Ask Dave. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave, I have had 2 engine shutdown situations, one of which was the rear engine start switch what out and I replaced it. The other was the connection for the ignition switch relay is electrical bay connection was loose. I have not heard about the bulletin you talk about and will be downloading it once it is posted.
Thank you Dave
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Pat and Jerald, ( check valve for fuel filter base ) new 238-0296 check valve Is a direct replacement
for the former 156-5783 check valve. The new check valve is a spool valve. The old valve is a ball
check valve. The new check valve prevents abrut engine shut down, prevents fuel from siphoning
back to fuel tank when engine is off. Siphoning fuel back to tank allows air from fuel tank to enter
fuel system. Results into hard starting. Engine serial numbers affected, ( 1YNI - up, 2KS1-up, 9SM-up,
9NS1-UP, MBL1-up ) correct torque for check valve 25 +- 2.5 ft.lbs. Need: 1 6V-4589 o-ring
This information is located on Ask Dave , Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I believe Gerald may have solved the problem. I went back out and tried to start the engine and I got intermittent electrical connectivity, the engine died a couple of times and dash lights flashing on and off. I replaced the ignition solenoid and everything appears to be working again. Looking at the old solenoid it looks like it was overdue replacement with all the melted schellac on the sides, it must have gotten very hot a some time.
Thanks for your input Dave I'll look into the check valve also. When this first happened I was afraid it may have been a fuel problem as I had just gotten fuel before driving home.
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Hi Jerald,
Another weak link in the system is the ignition switch. The one the manufacturer was installing was a cheap knock-off. Mine just failed 2 weeks ago. Replace it with a "Delco" ignition switch, and always keep a spare continuous duty solenoid that Gerald was talking about. Life is not good when you are on the side of the road.
Blessings, Fred
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Just for reference, most will want one of these 3 options:
1) Cole Hersee #24059-BP ~$20,
2) Cole Hersee #24117 (PVC-coated) ~$52, or
3) Cole Hersee #48785 (electronic) $200+
Joel
Addendum: be careful when ordering! Model numbers on these can be similar, and sellers (like Amazon) may not supply accurate specs. Check with Littelfuse/Cole-Hersee if in doubt. Do not order a 24117-01-BP regrettably mentioned here previously... it is only rated at 65 amp of continuous duty.
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Gentleman, this is a good subject and just want at add something that is very important.
Fred thank you for jogging my mind. There is from Caterpillar key switch bulletin sudden
shutdown of engine and restart. What I have been finding on many motorhome the size of
The key ring hanging from the main key you use to start and run engine. The keys do not
seem like a big thing but yet it is the road bumps virbration takes very little and along with
key will break contact inside switch it self. With sliver leaf or aldaln which many motorhomes
now have you will get an event code of 43-11 event code key switch fault. This will show up
on Cat ET diagnostic tool as ECM power loss and have a high occurrence count.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave, Just got my valve and O-ring new numbers are as follows: 281-2725 is the new valve group number and the seal O-ring is 136-7227. As for the heavy key ring that is the problems with the GM ignition switch problems of 5 years ago
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Pat, yes you are correct about the ignition switch and GM figured that out 5 year ago. This is
what I did not passed on, Caterpillar Service bulletin June 2003 Ingnition Key Switch Fault (43-02 &
43-11. Passing this information forward meaning several motorhome owners still own and drive
these units. This means caterpillar got on top of problem early but as with GM people were unaware
Of this problem to a later time. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Just for reference, most will want one of these 3 options:
1) Cole Hersee #24059-BP ~$20
2) Cole Hersee #24117-01-BP (coated) ~$30, or
3) Cole Hersee #48785 (electronic) $200+
Joel
I ordered a spare solenoid just to have "in case". This is for the front Run Box.
I got the Cole Hersee 24117-01. Now that I have it in hand, I see that it is rated for 65A continuous duty.
Should I return this one and get one rated for 85A?
What is the maximum amperage I should expect to flow through this solenoid on an '05 Patriot if everything (normal) is turned on?
Thanks
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Well, I’m disgusted. Amazon’s info is regularly erroneous. I thought I was repeating info gleaned from old threads here, but something is awry.
You should return that one for either a 24117 or the 24059-BP. Amazon claims the 24059-BP, recommended by Gerald, is 65 amp continuous, but the Littelfuse/Cole Hersee catalog says 85. The 24117 is it’s PVC coated version, but add “-01” to the model number and apparently it’s a slightly different animal. http://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/commercial-vehicle/catalogs/littelfuse-cole-hersee-heavy-duty-catalog-d-400.pdf. Pages 40 & 43.
Joel
With apologies for your inconvenience.
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Joel, I looked it up on the Cole Hersee website before I ordered from Amazon and it did say it was 85A. I'm not sure what happens to these items once they are listed by Amazon but they do seem to change.
The #24117 is supposed to be 85A "coated" (marine use), and the #24059 is 85A uncoated.
Okay, so I will send this one back and get the other.
Thanks
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Mike, they may have sent you the wrong one. Would not be the first time, as I have ordered things and received something different.
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Frank, I agree about that, especially regarding Amazon. But no, the 24117-01-BP turns out to be only 65 amp max at continuous duty. Both Amazon and apparently (one of) Cole-Hersee’s sites have left room for improvement. Reference my corrected previous post on page 1 of this thread.
Joel
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Hi Frank, No it's the right one.
It has the part number and Cole Hersee sticker. I think the part just changed somewhere along the way.
I think Joel is right about the "-01" added to part number changing things. The Cole Hersee website does not list any solenoid with -01 so this may be something new (or CH just didn't bother to update their site).
UPDATE: I found this chart - it looks like the two choices we have for a 85A continuous duty solenoid are the 24059 or the 24117 (not the 24117-01).