BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jim Gill on March 11, 2011, 02:23:54 AM
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Gerald
I spoke with you briefly at Quartzite about a chronic boiler coolant leak in the Hydro-Hot system in my 2006 Beaver Monterey. I had already replaced the radiator cap and checked all of the visible hoses running in and out of the Hydro-Hot assembly for leaks and found none. The leak seemed to be getting worse over time as I was having to top off the surge tank more often and with a larger volume of anti-freeze each time.
Earlier today I had a local Aqua-Hot certified guy take a look at my system and he determined that I have a leak on the backside of the assembly out of the engine preheat-out port. He said that this was not a repairable leak without removing the entire assembly, which I understand, but also that there was a good chance that based on his past experience, this brass/copper joint might not be repairable at all...by anybody!!! He claimed that my only options are to have him remove the entire unit and try to repair this joint but that if this wasn't successful, I would then have to purchase and have him install an entirely new unit from Aqua-Hot as a replacement to the tune of about $7,000.00-$7,500.00 and a wait time of 4 weeks. I had heard that these units were 'kinda pricey from Aqua-Hot but I assumed that complete replacement might only be required in the event of a hard freeze or some other major external event...not just a leaking joint!!! I'm now afraid that if this leak is getting progessively worse, one day I will wake up and have no hot water or heat.
The folks at Good Sam insurance have already said that if this leak is the result of rust or corrosion, it would not be covered under the policy that I have with them so, since it might not be unusual to find some traces of rust/corrosion on a 6 year old joint, at this point I'm not counting on any financial help from them with this repair.
My local guy contacted Cameron's in Tucson, another Aqua-Hot service site, to see if they had had any success in repairing this specific joint and was told by them that they had not...that they don't even try to fix them anymore.
Any thoughts on another plan of attack for me? I was thinking of calling Orman Claxton to get his advise and perhaps get him involved in making the required repairs, whatever they turn out to be.
As always, thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Regards,
Jim Gill
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I have a 2006 Montery an had the very same problem an it was leaking from the same place as you pointed out. Had to have it replaced to the tune of about 8,000. had the work done in Annoplis Maryland. They put in a reconditioned unit from Aqua hot with newer upgrades. Looks to me like their are some defective units out there an aqua hot should step up an address this issue. luckly my extended warrnenty did pay for mine which was the monaco extended warranty but took a little of prodding as it was a expensive repair. push your extended warranty an put pressure on them because there will be corroision from where it leaded as most any liquid will cause that over time. GOOD LUCK
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By all means get a second opinion fron Orman. Don't know where you are at this time but if you are not too far from Aguanga, Calif. I would be glad to take a look at it. I am not trying to take business away from Orman, just willing to help diagnose the problem. Mine had a leak on the temperature adjusting valve which is above the area you are talking about which I repaired by removing the metal stop on the knob. That allowed the seal to to fit deeper into the seat. Hope this helps, can't tolerate cold showers.
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Jim,
I saw Orman yesterday at the Moultrie Georgia rally, and I think that he is at the FMCA rally in Perry Georgia now. Since he is in Georgia, he will not be able to look at your unit now, but he can probably give you an educated opinion on the likely outcome of a repair attempt. He may also know if the Aqua-Hot factory, that is located just outside of Denver, may have a better way of repairing the unit. He may also have a good idea of the proper approach to use with your insurance company to get them to cover the repair. I would definitely give him a call.
Gerald
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You could try asking the opinions of Roger Berke and the guys at
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HydronicRVHeating/messages
-Joel
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I WOULD TRY A PROUDUCT CALLED MARINE TEX. YOU CAN GET IT AT A GOOD MARINE SUPPLY STORE.
IT IS A VERY STRONG EPOXY THAT WAS MADE TO FIX STEAM PIPES, THAT STARTED TO LEAK. IT WILL WITHSTAND THE HEAT WITH NO PROBLEM. I HAVE USED IT ON EXAUST MANAFOLDS. CLEAN UP THE JOINT. DRY IT UP. MIX UP THE MARINE TEX, AND PUT IT ON THE LEAK. LET IT CURE FOR 24 HOURS, AND RESTART YOUR AQUA HOT. NOTHING TO LOOSE, BUT TIME AND THE COST OF THE MARINE TEX.
GOOD LUCK.
DAVE B
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You could try asking the opinions of Roger Berke and the guys at
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HydronicRVHeating/messages
-Joel
Jim posted a request for advice there. It appears he got some good news. For reference and future use, I cut and pasted for anyone that wants to read about it. I think to be legal, I should note that the hydronic heating forum I cut from, is owned by Roger Berke, and he has a mobile business maintaining Hydro Hots and selling parts.
The post and answers:
Posted by: "jim.gill44" jtgillsteamboat@msn.com jim.gill44
Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:27 pm (PDT)
I own a 2006 Beaver Monterey equipped with a Hydro-Hot system...sorry but the model and serial number are in the coach which is currently
parked in Arizona 800 miles away.
I have been leaking boiler coolant from this system at an increasing rate for the past year. I've looked but have not been able to find any
outside or inside signs of a leak but I know it's going somewhere. I had a local Aqua-Hot guy in Arizona inspect it and he claims that he found a
leak out of the copper/brass joint for the diesel heat-out circuit on the backside of the Hydro-Hot assembly which is then routed into the
bolier tank. There was some coolant fluid on the basement floor in back of the assembly but it didn't appear to reflect as much coolant as I
have added even in the past few weeks. But he claims that this is the source of the leak and that this joint is not repairable.. .the only
choice he has provided me is to buy a complete new unit from AH for $7,500.00 and wait for 4 weeks to get it!!! The guys at AH claim that
this repair CAN be made with silver solder by somebody who knows what they are doing.
My extended insurance carrier, Good Sam, has already said that if there are any signs of corrosion or rust as the root cause of this leak, my
insurance policy won't cover any of the repair/replacement costs. If the cause of the leak turns out to be a mechanical failure of the joint
itself which wasn't caused by impact, they MAY cover the repairs. I wasn't aware that copper/brass could rust or corrode but Good Sam seems
to believe this can happen and it is one of the exclusions in their policy.
So, a couple of questions;
1. Has anyone had any experience with somebody successfully making the type of required repair described above,,,silver solder on a
copper/brass/ steel joint? If yes, what has been the success rate?
2. If this joint can't be repaired, can anybody think of any other options to a complete system replacement?
Thanks and regards,
Jim Gill
Re: Hydro-Hot coolant leak
Posted by: "Rudy" trainer4736@yahoo.com trainer4736
Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:20 pm (PDT)
Jim,
I have friend that can perform this repair on copper tube here in the greater Houston Area. He recommends using 15% silver solder vs 5% saying that it flows better.
So perhaps a plumber that solders copper in homes could help you there. A/C installers solder copper tubing also.
Rudy Legett
The guys at AH claim that this repair CAN be made with silver solder by somebody who knows what they are doing.
Re: Hydro-Hot coolant leak
Posted by: "JIM GILL" jtgillsteamboat@msn.com jim.gill44
Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:21 pm (PDT)
Rudy
Thanks for you help with this matter.
I'm heading down the road of finding somebody to make a silver solder repair as the guys at AH recommend. I'll pass on your friends advice regarding 15% vs 5% silver solder to whoever I find to do this work. If I get in a bind, I may drop you a note to get your friends name/phone number. I'd like to get this work done locally but sending the tank to Houston is far better than buying a new system from AH.
Thanks again,
Jim Gill
Re: Hydro-Hot coolant leak
Posted by: "Roger Berke" roger_95826@yahoo.com rogerberke_1999
Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:26 pm (PDT)
John
Without seeing your unit myself, I cannot be sure, however I think your unit can be repaired. The difficulty is being able to properly being
able to access the line to repair it. Your Hydro-Hot may have to be removed from the coach to get proper access to the coolant return line
to the boiler tank. Most of the Beaver coaches have an access panel that can be removed from under the coach to get access to the back of
the Hydro-Hot.
Whomever you choose to do the repair needs to submit a repair for broken solder joint or failed connection and not corrosion or rusting.
It is very unusual to have a failure like yours. I did one repair that was a failure of the threaded brass fitting on the return line on the
back of the Hydro-Hot. Lots and lots of Teflon tape, and lots of pipe dope and the fitting has not leaked so far.
- Roger Berke -
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Jim, haven't heard from you since the original post so was wondering where the story goes from here. As with everyone that responds we like to know the outcome of the resolution as it may help someone else in the future. Cheers!
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Greetings to all and thanks for the helpful feedback re: the boiler coolant leak in the Hydro-Hot system in my 2006 Beaver Monterey.
The Good Sam folks would not accept the photo that the local Aqua Hot tech in Arizona took of the leak as proof of a warrantable failure. Admittedly, it was not a very clear view of the leak source and the photo really didn't validate that the root cause of the leak was some type of mechanical failure rather than by rust or corrosion which would not be covered under the terms of my extended coverage. Good Sam was prepared to send an inspector out to make a go/no-go warranty coverage decision on them covering a repair but he told me up front that if the root cause of the leak was not clearly visible to his inspector, not only would he not be able to make a coverage decision but that I would be on the hook for the cost of the "wasted" trip made by the inspector. Good Sam continued to insist that the HH assembly and the boiler tank be entirely removed from my coach at my expense so that a proper inspection of the leak source could be made. And according to Good Sam, even if the leak should turn out to be a warrantable failure after a proper inspection, the repair process that Good Sam would cover could either be a repair of the boiler tank itself or a replacement of the entire system with a new unit ordered from Aqua Hot, depending on the total costs to them for each option.
The first option, repairing the boiler if this turned out to be the root cause of the leak, is an option that the AH factory folks recommend and they have assured me that they have successfully made in the past...but they no longer do this work!!! With this option, I would need to find either an AH service center that knows how to make this entire repair or have the local AH tech remove the tank from the coach where it is currently parked and then I would need to find a welding shop capable of making this repair. (And at this moment, I don't even know the details of the repairs required to describe to a welding shop to assure that somebody would even be willing to do the work!!!). My experience is that a job of this type should be done by a "single source" vendor who would then be responsible for the quality of the entire job. Paying one company to R&I the HH and boiler and paying another company to repair the boiler is not a suitable alternative but this is my only option with the local AH tech. Fortunately, I think I have located an AH service shop in Phoenix who is willing to take on this entire job but even they have expressed some concern about finding a welding shop capable of doing this work. And by the way, the AH factory can not/will not sell a boiler unit separately...you need to buy an entire new system for +$7500.00 installed.
The second option would be to order a complete new HH system from AH. It sounds like this would be an option for Good Sam in the event the tank repair option becomes too expensive or if we can't find a welding shop to even make the required repairs. However, there would be a four week wait for a new unit to ship from AH AFTER the Good Sam folks have finally made this warranty decision. It appears that this option would result in our coach being out of commission for at least 5-6 weeks if all went well...longer if there were any glitches. With four trips scheduled over the next three months, it's a bad time right now to shut down the coach for this period of time.
Since this leak is somewhat manageable and I have learned to check the coolant level more often than normal, I have decided to do the annual service on my HH system at this time and just run it for the next 3-4 months as-is. If the leak gets worse, I'll have to do something about it. But I'm hoping to get through the summer by operating the HH system for hot water only and not for interior coach heat and then bringing the coach to an AH service center this fall which is capable of making the entire repair with whichever option Good Sam elects to pursue after the shop I select has made a thorough failure inspection. We can plan ahead to be without the coach for 5-6 weeks in the fall before it gets parked in Arizona again for the winter.
Again, thanks for all of the feedback on my problem...this forum is GREAT!!!
Jim Gill
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With all of the problems with the H/H and A/H I wonder if it would be possible to replace it with a propane water heater? I know you would not have a furnace, but I have two heat pumps that work well in most cases. At over $7000.00 a propane sounds more reasonable. I do not have a problem at this time, just thinking about the future.
te expense of
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Jim,
I think it is reprehensible that Aqua hot has a failing unit in the field with an extremely short life and will offer up no assistance. This is a premature failure and to not offer you the ability to at least purchase the boiler part is negligent and arrogant on their part. The fact that they will sell you a whole new unit for $7500+ with install adds insult to the injury. If these units were less than $1000 expense then one might accept throwing the unit away and buying a replacement but not for what they ask for one of these systems.
This poor service will last until there is some competition and then the poor customer service will come back to haunt them.
Did you try discussing this with problem with Aqua Hot management? Did they have any explanation why you cannot buy the boiler part?
later Ed
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I was just at the FMCA RALLY in perry ga so I brought this problem to Aqua hots attention as I had the same problem with mine but prizim my extended warranty stood behind mine.
If you have to replace it you might want contact Oasia and there was one other manufacture there also do not remember there name but can probaly get the manufacture name from FMCA as they would have the names of the vendors. Hope this helps a little. the leak will get worse as mine did because i tryed to figure mine out but it just started leaking more.
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[size=14]At the FMCA Family Reunion at Perry Ga., one of the Beavers had the same Aqua-Hot problem, and was told it had to be replaced. My concern is, are they replacing it with one that could have the same problem? Jim Rixen from Rixen's Enterprises, Inc. was our guest at our 4 PM. social, and told us of another alternative. He sells and services a German made heater, The Espar, some Beavers have changed to this unit. His units have a Comfort-Hot unit in them like some of you already have. All his units have replaceable parts, and can be serviced. Check it out at 800-925-6260, The Rixen's Enterprises 37600 C Ruben Ln., Sandy, OR. 97055 http://www.rixens.com Jim Rixen is a friend of Beavers, and has helped many of us.
ROY MUELLER [/size]
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I replaced my Hydro-hot system due to a cracked boiler about 6 months ago with the newest Aqua-hot green machine. It was $11,000 installed. Way too much money but the system is invaluable in any colder temperatures and when you need a lot of hot water.
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I almost bought the Good Sam extended warranty. After reading your experience with them I think I will pass. The hoops they want you to jump through are ridiculous. Anything to get out of paying, after you already paid a big price for the policy.
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Amen to that for Good Sam "extended" warranty. Being backed by Loydds of London does not impress me when they are so dis-honest and outrageous in their pricing.
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I looked at all the warranties available when I purchased mine two years ago and decided against purchasing.
With what I have read about the constant arguing with them on covered or not covered repairs I am glad that I made that decision.
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Greetings
At last, I have a substantive update for anybody interested regarding the resolution of the Hydro-Hot coolant leak problem on my 2006 Monterey which has been discussed on this forum since last winter when I first tried to resolve the problem. I had learned to live with this problem since last winter by minimizing the use of the diesel burner and opting for the electric heat source whenever possible because the coolant leakage rate seemed to be less with the electric element.
I just spent the last three days in Fort Lupton, Colorado at the Aqua-Hot manufacturing facility and had John Carrillo, an ex-Aqua-Hot employee who now runs his own Aqua-Hot mobile service operation, perform all of the work described below. John did an excellent job and I would recommend him highly when you need some work done on your Hydro-Hot or Aqua-Hot systems.
I have attached a series of digital images to help explain the root cause of my coolant leak problem.
The image titled "Hydro-Hot leak" shows the "Engine Preheat Out" connection on the backside of my unit and where, according to the Aqua-Hot tech in Arizona, the boiler coolant was leaking. I really didn't agree with his diagnosis because this circuit carries diesel engine coolant and not the boiler coolant which is what I had been leaking. Though it was clear that something had been "leaking" and collecting at this joint over the years, it just didn't make sense to me that this was the real source of my problem. Please note that this tubing is not centered where it exits through the cabinet wall...it is at least 1/2"-3/4" lower than it should be...more on this later.
When John finally got my unit removed and then disassembled, he discovered that there was a crack in a brass fitting on the return-to-tank circuit from the heating system...it was either overtightened when originally installed or just a "crappy" fitting. The images titled "Hydro-Hot repair (1)", "Hydro-Hot repair (4)" and "Hydro-Hot repair (5)" show this crack clearly. As seen in image "Hydro-Hot repair (2)", this fitting is located in the upper-right corner on the backside of the boiler tank and had clearly been leaking boiler coolant down the back of the tank and then accross the bottom. The "crap" attached to the boiler tank is actually the remains of the insulation which Aqua-Hot installs on all sides of these boilers when they build them in order to better retain heat.
As John continued with the disassembly process, it became obvious to me where the 5-10 gallons of boiler coolant which I had dumped into this system over the past 12-16 months had gone...it had been absorbed by all of the insulation material and though most/all of the water content of the coolant mixture had evaporated, the coolant content remained in the insulation and eventually caused it to deteriorate and when heated, stick to all sides of the boiler tank. Images "Hydro-Hot repair (3)" and "Hydro-Hot repair (6)" show some of this material stuck to various locations on the boiler tank.
When Aqua-Hot was still building the Hydro-Hot, they placed a solid piece of 1"-2" thick insulation underneath the bottom of each unit above the sheet metal floor...this insulation material was intended to insulate AND to support the boiler tank at the correct height inside the assembly. We discovered that the reason the "Engine Preheat Out" tubing (and actually all of the other tubes coming out of the cabinet walls) was not centered on the opening was because the leaking coolant had compromised the bearing capacity of the insulation underneath the boiler tank and it was no longer able to support the tank at its design height. The entire boiler tank had dropped down inside the assembly by about 1"-2".
So, John cleaned everything up, secured a new insulation kit from the factory folks, installed a new brass fitting at the problem site, replaced a few other parts which were very easy to replace when everything was already torn apart, put the unit back in my coach, filled it with all fresh boiler coolant and the job was finished. I've only used the system a few times in the past 24 hours but I'm confident that we found and repaired the root cause of my problem.
In summary, a few lessons I've learned from this experience;
1. Just because you may have a boiler coolant leak in your Aqua/Hydro-Hot system, don't let somebody automaticly tell you that the ONLY solution is to install a "new" system for $10,000.00!!! That's what folks were telling me but it made sense that there had to be a few other possible sources of coolant leaks which could be repaired for less than 10 big ones!!!
2. We all understand that it is very difficult to secure, train and retain good technicians to work on these systems. Most all of the techs are mobile and don't really have any shop environment in which to work. Most of what they do is the required annual services and occassionally, the complete replacement of a total system. I don't believe that very many of them would be able to completely disassemble, troubleshoot and reassemble one of these systems as was John Carrillo. It was time consuming and messy!!! He admitted that he would have rather just been removing my old system and installing a brand new system...it would have taken him less time and he would have made more money on the total job. But the bill to me would have been almost 10 times what the repair of my system ended up costing. And Good Sam is going to pick up part of the tab!!! So try and find an Aqua-Hot tech you can trust, who knows what he is doing and who is willing to think "outside the box" when it comes to repair options...many of them seem to jump straight to the purchase and installation of a brand new system despite the cost.
Sorry this was so long but this experience might be helpful for somebody else down the road and it might save somebody
Jim Gill
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Jim,
Looks like we all can learn from your experience. Only one photo came through given you are limited to 1MB. You will have to resize (compress) the photos to 200Kb or less to get them all out there.
Later Ed
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Greetings
Here are the six pix which go with the explanation of my recent Hydo-hot repair.
Jim
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I was just about to post our experience with a Hydro Hot leak, when I ran across this one.
Our situation was almost identical to the one started here. A slow leak developed into a fast one & turned out to be a cracked upper left heating water return line fitting. And yes the first techs we talked to stated that these were soldered in & required rebuild/replacement of the unit. A very good Tech at Maple Grove RV in Everett Washington was able to contact, I believe Jim, at Aqua Hot who confirmed these are replaceable fittings. They are screwed into a soldered bung on the tank.
Since this leak was very slow at first & since the fitting is high on the tank and would nearly stop when the tank level fell below the crack, it was very frustrating to locate. The other reason to add this to a Great data base is that a Tech who had done some work for us ran across the same exact cracked fitting on the same HHE 200 09 E as ours. We too are not sure if it is due to a crappy brass fitting or the 90 degree adaptor that was overtightened by the Beaver factory. Hope this info helps someone else down the road...……….