BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Keith Oliver on April 12, 2011, 03:35:04 AM
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I am an experienced boater (over 35 years). Brand new to a 98 Beaver. I thought the learning curve would be manageable.
So far, I have had dead batteries 3 times. I have owned the Beaver only since March 11th. It seems that every time I think everything is turned off and leave the coach for a few days, when I return, the batteries have been sucked down. There doesn't seem to be any master switch, or if there is, I just haven't found it.
This coach has a Heart Freedom 20 with a remote panel above the Driver. The remote panel has a on/off, but the lights on it don't change if that switch is moved. Why is the switch there if it doesn't do anything? Likewise the switches by the door, the one called "coach" and the one for the step don't seem to do anything. The step sometimes works with the switch in the off position, and usually works with the switch in the on position. The front ceiling light comes on when the "coach" switch is pushed and the ceiling light switch is in the on position, but pushing the "coach" switch again doesn't turn that light off. At least pushing it a few times did nothing, but persistently pushing it eventually did turn the light off. What could that be about?
The first time the batteries were down, jumping from my car was enough to get the genset running, but even after generating for a few hours, there wasn't enough juice to start the CAT. In fact trying to start the CAT killed the genset. I ended up putting in new start batteries. Then I had to leave it for almost 3 weeks, without being plugged in, and sure enough the start batteries were flat again. This time jumping from the car got us going and we were good till we got to my house, where I plugged into 15 amp service. After 5 days, I went to start up today and found not enough juice in either the starts or all batteries combined. What is going on!
Plugging into 15 amps should be more than enough to keep the batteries up. Especially with solar panels on the roof. Especially since everything was turned off. Or was it?
Has anyone had any of these experiences and solved it? I would like to hear from you.
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Keith,
Your coach has two battery systems, the house (coach) batteries and the chassis batteries. The house batteries (4 six volt golf cart batteries) are recharged by the solar panels, the inverter, or the engine alternator when the engine is running. The house batteries power all of the 12V systems inside the coach. The chassis batteries (2 12V batteries) are recharged by the engine alternator only unless you have an auxiliary charger like an Echo Charger. The chassis batteries supply the current to start and operate the coach engine and generator.
You did not give any indication how much your inverter was charging your house batteries when you were plugged in to 120V AC. Are you sure that the inverter charger was turned on so that it would charge the house batteries. Do you have an Echo Charger and if so is it working? If not there was nothing charging the chassis batteries unless the coach engine is running.
The coach engine computer will use enough 12V current from the chassis batteries to completely discharge them in 2 or 3 weeks just maintaining it's keep alive memory. So you will need a charging method or you will need to disconnect the chassis batteries.
If this does not make sense to you, or you need to discuss it further, call me. My phone number is in the directory and in Beaver Tales. I am the Region 4 VP.
Gerald
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Keith, we also have a '98. We had a similar problem, tough to find but an easy fix. Seems that the battery tray in motion work hadrens the cable connectors over time. One wire in the connector was bad and so when I cleaned the contacts I thought the maintenance was done. A new connector was needed and solved the intermittant problem.
Congrats on the new rig.
Keith and Carol Moffett
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Gerald:
I have an echo charger. With an echo charger, I expected the start batteries to maintain a charge while plugged in to the 15 amp service, but after 5 days those batteries were flat. On 15 amps, I don't know if any charge is getting to the echo charger.
I saw something in one of the (very few) papers in the coach, so I have been operating under the theory that the solars were only for the house batts. Thanks for confirming that.
The inverter occasionally reads some charge, (I saw as much as 6o amps) while plugged in to 30 or 50 amp service, but mostly reads 0. This even when there wasn't enough juice to start the engine, while combining the batteries. I don't know whether the inverter switch (inside) should be in the on pos or the off pos, as the lights on the panel don't change.
At this point I am looking for a marine style "off" for the start batteries, so as to avoid frequent flat conditions.
Keith:
I will check the connections in the battery compartment later today. Thanks for the heads up.
Other than this electrical issue, our "new" coach is a real treat. generally in "like new"' condition, except for window seals, which I see from many posts can be dealt with relatively easily. We lost a Dometic AC cover on the drive up, so replaced both. That and other minor bits of sunburned plastic will all get renewed before our first big trip, this fall, so by then we should be ready to show off our "New" coach. Inside, the "like new" condition is throughout the coach.
Still looking for a suitable name for the new "Beaver". This isn't like the boating world, where the name is everything. Having "Beaver" in the name also presents some challenges.
Our boat is "Retreat" and is where we will be for the summer.
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Keith,
We have a '98 Patriot and have had the same problems. I replaced all of the batteries, both coach and chasis, and still lost the charge in the chasis batteries after a few weeks in our winter spot. I called the service dept in Bend and was told that there is enough drain on the system to bring down the chasis batteries in a few weeks. There is a switch to cut off all power to the house,but not a switch to cut off the chasis batteries. I had a switch installed on the chasis side and I turn it off when the motor home is parked for more than a day. I have not had any problems since. The engine has started without problems several times after being parked for more than a week.
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Ron:
Thanks for your input. Now I will hasten the installation of an "off" switch on the chassis batteries. I will put it in the battery bay, as close to the batteries as possible. I expect it will need to be wired onto the + side of both start batteries, and that a marine style rotating switch will do the job.
What kind of switch did you use?
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Keith,
From your reply, it sounds like you need to have your inverter looked at. If the inverter is not charging the house batteries, the Echo Charger will not function. The Echo Charger only turns on and starts charging the chassis batteries when it senses 13V or above in the house batteries. So if the house batteries are not being charged, the chassis batteries are not being charged.
You need to take a volt meter and check the voltage at both battery banks. If the house batteries are below 13V the Echo Charger green light will flash and indicate that it is not charging. When the house batteries are above 13V the green light will be on steady, and if the inverter is charging the house batteries they will be at least 13.3V. If the light is not on at any time, you have a bad input fuse or a bad Echo Charger. If the light is on steady and the chassis batteries are not being charged, you have a bad output fuse or a bad Echo Charger. The Echo Charger fuses are 20A glass automotive fuses that are inline a few inches from the Echo Charger and are prone to failure. If you need to know any more about your Echo Charger the owner's manual is located here: http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Accessories/Auxiliary-Battery-Charger/Echo-charge-OwnerGuide(445-0204-01-01).pdf
You can also find the owner's manual for your inverter on the Xantrex website. My coach came with a marine style rotating cut off switch that I never use, because if the inverter and Echo Charger are functioning properly, it is never needed unless the coach is stored inside without an electrical connection, and that never happens with my coach.
Gerald
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Keith,
Congrats on your new land yacht. I'm a boater also and figured much the same as you... shouldn't be too much of a learning curve for a boat on wheels. WRONG! While many systems are similar, Beaver has put many things on their rigs that I'd not ever dealt with on any of my floating toys (including "Miss Teak" - a 48' ketch rigged sailboat).
We have a '99 Patriot Thunder and I've left her unattented and NOT plugged in for 3-4 weeks with no problems (so far). I don't know why the chassis batteries would discharge so quickly. I know Gerald stated that the engine ECU will use power - and I'm sure he is correct about that, but it seems your draw is considerably more excessive.
My rig apparently had some "specialists" working on it prior to my purchase in January. I am slowly finding and fixing their handywork. So far, I've found some incorrect re-wiring of the AC, fans, and radio. Perhaps someone wired something to the chassis batteries?
I do have a "coach power" switch as well as 3 other switches near the exit door. The coach switch is a press once "on" press again "off" type switch, rather than a rocker On/Off type. On press and all house stuff goes out, including the AC and Heater controls and thermostats. The step switch was a bit confusing at first. I'd turn it off and expect the step to stay put, but it didn't. I soon learned that if the engine is running the step will go in and out when the door is opened and closed, irregardless of the step swtich position. It sounds like you have have a issue with the coach power switch (or relay) based on your post. But, I don't know why that would effect your chassis batteries.
In any case, you might want to get an inductive amp probe to check what the amp draw is on the chassis batteries. Based on the current draw, you might be able to deduce what is using the power so quickly. I'd expect only milliamps for any ECU (but would have to check that in the Cat sevice manual) Anything larger than an amp or so shouldn't be present unless something engine/chassis related isn't shutting off.
Just an aside... are you sure your chassis batteries are fully charged? You may have charging system issues. Check the serp belt on the cat and the invertor/charger (and echo charger) as others have stated to be sure you are starting with a fully charged system.
Good luck
J
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Gerald:
I will attack with my voltmeter later today.
J:
Thanks for your input. I think I have the same set of switches by the door. I just have to get used to them. especially the "coach power" switch. It looks like a rocker, but feels like a press, press again.
My chassis batteries were new on March 17th, when I couldn't get any more juice out of the old ones. NAPA Industrial, 1150 CCA, x2. By now, I know they are not fully charged, as they have been dead twice. I will be following Gerald's advice to trouble shoot in the battery bay and in the inverter bay.
The only evidence of rewiring that I have found so far relates to the trailer wiring that was done to facilitate the sale to me. It will need to be redone, but after these other priorities are corrected.
Retreat is a C&L 44 trawler with twin Volvo TAMD41s. We had sail until 1994, including a Seabird 37 ketch, before moving to the dark side.
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Keith,
We did in fact use a rotary marine switch. It is mounted in the frame above the batteries. The switch is on the negative side and was not difficult to wire. I had to purchase a new cable to go from the switch to one of the two chasis batteries.
I can only hope that this will solve the problem. I have learned in the short time we have owned our '98 that something is always needing attention. We love our classic old Patriot. The original owner kept it in covered storage and did not use it very much. We have spent 3 months in Florida and will be heading west next week.
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Gerald:
I am getting 13.8v at the coach batteries, and the liquid is bubbling, so a good rate of charge is still going in. the chassis batteries are 11.4v and no sound of bubbling (can't look into these ones) so no charging happening at the moment. the echo charger has no green lights. It has ared light (off) marked "overheat". I checked the fuses, both good.
I downloaded a Freedom 20 manual. No help there. I called Xantrex and the helpful guy there suggested a blown 1/4 amp fuse inside the inverter case. I took the lid off, but I couldn't find any fuses. the Inverter was quiet, the fan was still.
I turned off the switch at the inverter, but that didn't seem to make any difference. Inside the coach, I turned off the inverter switch and the lights on the remote panel went dark, but when I checked it a few minutes later the lights were back on. So with both switches in the off position (I went back out to the inverter and checked) the lights were on, showing no charging, (0 amps) but showing that the inverter/charger is operational, and the voltage is up.
I measured for hooking up a battery off switch today and will go to the marine store tomorrow. I went to the RV store for same, but what they had was pretty mickey mouse (no offence Mick).
I don't want to install the rotary off switch if any charging is going on, so I will check the voltage again tomorrow before I install.
I now think I have everything off, but the lighted inverter panel is a puzzle.
Any thoughts still welcome.
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Keith,
From your description, you have a bad Echo Charger, and since it is not charging your chassis batteries as it should, the engine computer (ECM) is discharging them.
Echo chargers are fairly inexpensive to replace. I have never had a problem with one except for a bad fuse, however I know of several owners who have had to replace the unit more than once.
Gerald
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Gerald:
I think you are right. I will be taking the coach in next week for an oil change etc, so I will see if the shop can do a definitive test on it. Thanks for your insight.
That's enough for tonight, its getting dark.
Keith
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Kieth,
I believe thet the engine ECM is wired to be on with the chassis switch in the off position (by passes the switch) with coaches that came with built in chassis battery switches. I believe that was a Cat requirement. It could be for memory backup or for reliability enhancement keeping the unit in a steady state voltage condition or both. If you add a battery switch you will have to decide how the ECM will be wired for your case. It may be better to just forgo the chassis battery switch and just fix the Echo Charger system if you can leave the coach plugged in when not in use.
As a caution the house battery switch should not be turned off with the inverter/charger unit powered on. Always have the battery switch on before plugging the coach into a !20V source. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Some progress, more puzzles.
I have an industrial charger on the chassis batteries right now.
I found a book aboard called "Contessa Owner's Supplement", in which there is no mention of an echo charger, but this appears: "NOTE It is possible to charge the chassis batteries with the house batteries by turning the ignition key counter-clockwise to the auxiliary position. This should not be done more than two to three hours per week because prolonged use may damage the start boost relay."
Has anyone any experience with this method of charging the start batteries? does it work if there is an echo charger? I will still be getting a shop on the repair of this circuit, if in fact it needs anything.
The "Coach power" switch by the door seems to be ok, so the fault that is now keeping coach power off is further down that line. I took the switch out to check it and found that it is a momentary switch that wil send a pulse of 5v power down an orange coloured wire when pressed. Where that goes is the present mystery, as the coach power, which I couldn't get to turn off till yesterday, is now off and I can't get it to turn back on. I even tried shorting past the terminals on the switch, but nothing happened and the power is still off.
I am convinced there were still some draws on both the coach and chassis batteries until I put in a cut-off for the chassis, and the faulty coach system turned off. now I expect to have lots of juice. I will be able to drive to a shop, I just won't have any of the interior comforts till that coach power system comes back to life.
If any of you know anything about the coach power circuit, where I can get an electrical diagram for that circuit, or find some place that will understand it, please post.
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I can give you some info on our 98 Patriot 37' and I think your coach basic wiring is likely to be 95% the same.
1. Echo chargers were optional in 98 so unless a prior owner added one (as I did), it seems unlikely that you have one. Other posts have indicated how they work. If you don't have one, then I definitely would get one but only after all your problems are solved.
2. Regarding using the ignition switch in the ccw (aux) position, I have been know to do that on occasion. Especially when the outside temps are less than 20 degrees F and if I am plugged into shore power or have the generator running.
3. The coach power switch by the front door (when working properly) sends an electrical voltage each time it is pushed to a "latching relay type" which is located under the sleeping bed on our coach. Lift up the bed for access. It basically toggles each time it gets a pulse from that front coach power switch. The relay will latch ON then the next pulse it will latch OFF then next pulse ON, etc, etc. I don't know the route that wire takes from this switch to the latching relay. Also, the 5v pulse that you mention seems interesting.
4. When troubleshooting electrical problems, you may want to cover your solar panels on the roof with blankets as they can get you some very strange voltages the confuse the heck out of you. Definitely get a good clamp-on ac/dc ammeter. You will use it.
I have followed your posts and you do seem to have some strange things going on. Be patient and keep at it. I bought ours when under two years old. It had seven uniquely different electrical intermittent problems and it took over 2 years to get the last one isolated. As you know, it is almost impossible to troubleshoot anything when it happens to be working at the moment yet it sounds like most of your issues are not intermittent so hopefully you will have them solved soon.
You are free to call me if you want to discuss anything in more detail and I will try to help.
Larry Fritz in Nebraska
(408) 515-5957
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Keith,
When you turn the key to the accessory position the boost solenoid is energized. So both battery banks are tied together, and the inverter then charges all batteries at the same time. The down side to charging the chassis batteries this way is that you will shorten the boost solenoid's life, and it requires owner attention and action.
A properly functioning Echo Charger will keep your chassis batteries fully charged automatically with no action on your part.
Your coach power switch operates a latching relay as described by Larry, and the relay operates a continuous duty solenoid that supplies the 12V power for coach circuits. So you either have a bad relay (highest probability) or a bad solenoid.
Gerald
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Larry, Gerald:
The saga continues.
I got a wiring diagram from Loren at the Bend Beaver Service centre. I haven't totally figured it out, but it confirms what each of you are saying about the solenoid under the bed. I also got a call back from the tech at Southwest Coaches in Indio, where I bought this unit, and Dwayne suggested that the solenoid is actually in the battery bay, and I might test it by banging it with a hammer. I have the coach in for its necessary conversion to Daytime Driving lights, at our local Canadian Tire, so can't look into these suggestions until I get it home.
Dwayne also told me that the echo charge won't come on for the chassis batteries until their voltage drops below 10.5v. I charged them fully with an industrial charger, so I will have to wait a while now before I draw any conclusions re the echo charger.
I will post when I have either of these issue figured out any further.
Thanks for your continuing interest.
Keith
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Keith,
The statement that you heard about the Echo Charger not charging the chassis batteries until they are below 10.5V is incorrect. The Echo Charger is a voltage follower type charger and will charge the chassis batteries if the house batteries are at or above 13V and there is less than 10V difference between the two battery banks.
The Echo Charger will also reduce the charging current if the house batteries are above 14.4V to prevent overcharging the chassis batteries. So if the house batteries are within the 13V to 14.4V range a properly functioning Echo Charger will try to keep the chassis batteries at the same voltage that the house batteries are at.
Gerald
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Gerald:
Thanks for your info re the echo charger.
I don't have any green LED on mine. The only LED is a red one market "thermal overload" I will re-check the in-line 20A fuses and find a way to check to see if there is any output from this unit. I will now also check with Xantrex to properly identify the unit and for its operating criteria. With this being a 1998 version, I haven't been able to find an operating manual for it. I have found one for the inverter, but it simply doesn't mention the echo charger.
My Xantrex MS2000 that I have on my boat has a built-in echo charger, that operates at all voltages, so is a likely source of false assumptions for the one on the Beaver.
I won't have much time to progress on this quest for the next few weeks, so this thread may go quiet. I will report back as there is progress.
Keith
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Some further investigation has revealed that there is nothing wrong with the switch at the front of the coach. the solenoid back in the engine room also works just fine, when it gets enough voltage. Somehow there is a shortage of voltage. The power switch at the front gets about 5v. the solenoid at the back needs 12v. There is a little shunt? beside the solenoid, connected to it, that seems to reduce the voltage from 12 to 5, so could be the culprit. Does anyone know what this shunt is for? Or how it is supposed to work?
To work around this problem, I put in a switch at the back, connected directly to the solenoid. It now turns the coach power on or off, but is only temporary.
At least I know I can reliably get the power turned off.
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As for the echo charger, It has now been effectively diagnosed as dead. I called Xantrex for help. Their tech told me how to test it. It failed. A replacement is available on line for $113.95, plus shipping, or here for $184.00. Lordco had a small smart charger for $60.00, so I wired one in. The start batteries were getting nothing, now something, so I should be OK for a while. I have to leave the Beaver untended for the next 3 weeks, so now I can relax about power!
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Well now its time to tell what I have learned.
I have been away for a few weeks, with greeting our first grandchild, in Paris, France.
I identified what I had thought was a shunt, after getting the circuit diagram from Loren at Bend, as a 250Amp fuse, between the battery isolator and the solenoid that activates/deactivates coach power. Despite getting a voltage reading of 5 volts across the fuse, it was indeed blown. Replaced it and now the switch at the front works to shut off the coach power, just like it should! I now have an extra switch in the bedroom that does the same job.
I don't know why that fuse blew, as none of the wiring I could see looked bad, and everything but the things I have identified here worked properly. I will be keeping an eye on that one, and I will also carry a spare.
The wiring diagram also discloses that the solar panels are not connected to the chassis batteries, unless the combining solenoid is engaged, so the only charging that gets to the chassis batteries is from the alternator, or if you have a functional echo charger, which I did not have. I now have a smart charger dedicated to the chassis batteries, that is plugged into the coach AC, so is active whenever the coach is plugged in. I also now have a disconnect attached to the chassis batteries between the negative post and the grounding cables, so I can cut all loads off if I am going to be leaving the coach unattended and not plugged in. I understand from another thread that the ECM may need to be connected in cold weather, just to keep it from getting condensation damage.
I am optimistic that I have now sorted out the electrical gremlins and I can go on to other issues.
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Keith, glad to read your report with positive results. Sometimes problems like yours can drive you to drinking, have had a couple of those myself. At least you know a lot more about the coach now. Congratulations GRANDPA!
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Keith,
I had a 250 amp fuse blow on my '98 Patriot. It was replaced, but could not find the cause. 2 blocks down the road it blew again. This time the cause was evident. The positive cable from the battery to the fuse, was routed across the top of an engine stud. As the engine torqued, the stud rubbed against the cable. Eventually the cable became welded to the stud. The Beaver production people just did not do the job with any forethought. I moved the fuse holder up about 6", which moved the connected cable away from the engine. No further problems with the 250 amp fuse.
Before you move your coach, you may want to check the cables for ware spots.
Larry
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Larry:
Thanks for that heads up. I will check it out.
Keith
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Kieth and All,
Cat folks got back with me today regarding the question, Is it O.K. to drop the ECM power for long periods of time and why were our coaches wired such that the ECM is powered all the time? For reference the individul who worked within Cat to get the answers was Bob Kulpa at the ECM hotline number 309-578-5999.
The first question is what ECMs do our coaches use. There are two versions, the Atom 2 which had 2- 40 pin connectors and drew about 700MA. They were used up through part of 99 with C12 engine prefixes No 1YN and 9NS. The later version is the Atom 3 used with engine prefixes 2KS and MBC. They have two 70 pin connectors and draws about 300MA. He obtained those numbers by bench testing and said they had field complaints with the Atom 2 draining chassis batteries. My coach has the Atom 3 and draws 1.1 amps from the chassis batteries in total with everything in the coach off. That number includes other electronics with memory including the Allison ECU. One would think that coaches with the Atom 2 would be drawing about 1.5 amps all the time.
The question as to why the coaches were wired with power to the ECM all the time? The rational for doing so was unclear except that it was a stable condition and when power is applied there is a 7 second lag for the ECM to recover and wake up. Eliminating that lag seemed to be the best answer behind the motivation to leave the ECM powered all the time.
The question about condensation and thermal stability affecting the ECM reiaibility. Cat folks thought that the sealing of the ECU and the package design was robust enough and that there was no need to maintain power for environmental reasons.
The question about the ECM lithium battery life being affected. The lithium battery gets charged from the 12V supply and each time the ECM loses power it writes parameter information to the flash memory. The battery is expected to have a 10 year life and they do not see that life being significantly impacted by dropping power part time. The first sign of a failing lithium ECM backup battery would be loss of hour and clock information. There is a remote chance in reading and writing data that an error is made but it has not been a problem.
The best test for this dropping of power lies in the fire and military community. According to Bob, many military and emergency fire applications drop the power to the chassis during extended storage intervals and they have not observed any systematic problems. Bob did say that from time to time they have had a random failure of an ECM while chassis batteries were being changed. They had no answer as to why.
The intent of all this was to try and close out the ECM power question and the net of this is that dropping power should not cause ECM issues. It may be good to provide power to the ECM once a month for an hour or so to recharge the lithium battery. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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I thought I just killed my chassis batteries last time out, but have found out I am getting no chassis battery charge off the shore power or generator. I noticed my battery cutoff switch does not light up but functions. My manual says there's a fuse in the back closet for this, but I checked it out, and nothing is blown. I believe I have 2 relays and 2 solenoids that go to the big boy, to allow charge to the chassis batteries. Am I correct on that? Monaco told me to check the gray box in the battery compartment but I don't have that. Any ideas would help.
Thank you
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Keith: My 98 Patriot 37' built in July of 98 does indeed have a CHASSIS solar panel on the roof. It is small (like 14" square or so) and the two large solar panels are for the COACH batteries.
Once years ago, I went through the drill of where is the "screwy low voltage coming from" and found it was the solar panels. It is easy to check by just going up on the roof.
As near as I can tell, the CHASSIS small solar panel does not have a regulator on it. You can put a heavy blanket over it to stop the voltage production when you are testing. (or disconnect the solar panel)
I have finally installed battery disconnect switches on both the CHASSIS and the COACH batteries at the batteries so when I shut them off there is nothing getting to or discharging the batteries.
Larry Fritz
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Larry:
Thanks for that. Now I understand others who have posted to say that their solar panel is connected to the Chassis batteries.
I wondered what I had on the roof, and when I got the circuit diagram from Beaver, it only shows the twin 2'x4' panels, connected only to the house batteries. I also have a small panel that looks older and that I haven't tried to chase for its connection to the chassis batteries. I assume that the weather while my Beaver was waiting for permission to become a "Great Canadian Beaver" wasn't good enough to provide more than a few miliamps of power to the Chassis batteries during that 3 week period. (March, rainy, at 49deg N latitude)
How do you tell if an old solar panel is still functioning to its design specifications? First I guess I would need to find a wire, then measure the amperage and note the angle of the sun. At 49deg north, I wonder if a panel that small would do anything, especially in the winter. When I come south, I will measure again.
I have wired my small smart charger so that it can charge the Chassis batteries whether or not the batteries are disconnected. I don't yet have a disconnect on the house batteries. At this point I don't think I need one.