BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Keith Moffett Co-Admin on April 30, 2011, 02:21:29 AM
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There is alot of information here about leaking slideouts but it seems to be so scattered that I figure starting a thread for just this purpose might be helpful. I am depending on the more educated types to help fill in the gaps.
Defining the problems;
We have the (now older) '98 Patriot with the kitchen slide which has leaked since we purchased it.
Interestingly, it leaks open or closed but only when it rains enough at one time.
To further complicate the issues it leaks past the outer seals and the inner seals and the sealant used on top the slide for the seams lets go so it leaks down the inner walls of the slide as well.
Sources for info;
Tom at Beaver Coach Sales service dept.
Coachmasters of Bend (Paul)
Peninsula RV Sequim Wa (Harry)
Solutions;
Tom tells me that the leak inside the slideout is caused by one of two possibilities. The exterior seam on top and just inside the outside wall of the slide can loose its seal and must be resealed with a caulking that remains pliant but sticks. I believe he called it a "beutal".
The other possibility is the seam that can only be reached by removing all the cabinets to expose the inner surface of the roof, inside the slideout box. Vibration over time can cause this to leak and a "beutal" caulk is indicated here as well.
While the cabinets are down, it is aparently (acording to Tom) the time to replace the white inner seal / gasket. The inner seal down the side seems good on ours but the "D" seal that goes across the top at some point became stuck to the wall and tore when the slide was pulled in. I have no idea how the inner seal on the other end can be replaced unless one removes the entire slide out.
The outer seal is more acessable. This is a "P" shape where the leg of the P is the sweep. Aparently one must remove all old glues and on a clean surface the adhesive backing will stick. Tom at BCS tells me that they get this seal in place and stuck but then run a bead of the above mentioned "beutal" adhesive caulk to reinforce to bulb portion of this "P" by glueing it across the top. For the corners this "P" seal is cut on a mitre partway through and glued back together with super glue to make the 90 degree angle.
OK fellows, I stipulate that I have never done any of this and am just passing my research along. I will be doing this, all of this and will much appreciate advice and what to look out for from you experienced types.
I hope this helps someone down the road, especialy me LOL
Keith Moffett
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I have a 97 Marquis and for the past couple of years or so have had the leak problem on the slideout. In heavy rain the water would come down through the cabinets. Last fall, I had Alliance RV in Florida do a complete exterior gaskets on the coach and when doing so the mechanic showed me where the problem was, and it was the exterior seam that Keith talked about. As he said, that over the years of vibration caused the original sealant to crack. The mechanic was able to reach it from the outside and so far I have had no problems.
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Here is the sealant: Butyl although calling it Beaut-al may happen after it fixes your leak.
http://www.tremcosealants.com/industrial/products/product_detail.asp?id=24
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WitKeith
Sheese..beautal...what was i thinking. Tha.ks for the link as well.
David, i am still unsure of the seam as it was desribed.bY phone. AS shown to you, the seam was on top the slide, outside, and runs in line with and just behind the exterior wall. That right?
Your experience may mean i dont have to pull down the cabinets. I hope so.
Thanks all
Keith
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Typing errors are due to new mobile device. Thanks for your patience!
Keith
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My experience with the Butyl is not so good. It never drys and acts like bubble gum when it contacts another surface. Had to remove what a mess! The leak on my slide was due to poor sealeant where the back of the cabinets met the slide and the screws were not sealed. Once i sealed with pure silicon it stopped the leak.
Hope your experience with Butyl is better than mine.
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Hi Tom
Most every Beaver I've seen has many of the same leak problems. A local dealership has a '99 Tourmaline for sale, what a beautiful rig but it too has the slide out leaks on the inner wall of the slide just behind the sofa.
When I last spoke with Beaver Coach sales, Tom told me that the butyl is the only thing to use here as it stays stuck and flexable. He didnt indicate there were any aplication problems. Before I order some from them, was there any chance that you got a bad product?
I can imagine you being pretty upset having to repeat all that work along with the extra mess.
Did you pull down your cabinets and if so what kinds of issues did you experience in the process.
Keith
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Ok, just my 2 cents. I had the slide seals replaced on all four slide outs on our 2005 Beaver at Coach Masters in Bend. I left there and went to Eugene to have Davis cabinets to have a new computer desk installed which by the way came out excellent. Anyway while there it began to rain pretty heavy that night. I was disappointed to wake up to a wet carpet near the dinette at the rear drivers side slide. I found a mobile repair company called Elite Repair & Remodel. They came and checked out our problem and had it diagnosed within 15 minuets! When the slide was installed there was a metal strip on that end that had worn a hole in the tin catch pan for that end of the slide. Instead of the pan catching the water and running it outside of the coach it was coming thru the worn out area into the coach. Once they got that repaired we have no more leaks! They also repaired a couple of other items for me and charged me what I felt was a reasonable amount. By the way Coach Masters also did a great job for me. It just ended up that the seal was not the problem with this leak. I would highly recommend Elite if you're in Eugene and have a problem. I have also had great service from Beaver Coach Sales and just happened to be able to get into Coach Masters on the days I needed on this trip so I used them.
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Larry
There's a catch pan? Where is it and what does it look like? Could you describe the metal plate and its location? Do you know if these were used on older coaches like our '98?
Beaver Coach Sales have been very helpful to us and good folks all around. Coach Masters (also of Bend) have done alot of work for us and very dependably, Steve and Paul are great guys.
Thanks for the input
Keith
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Keith: If you get on the trusty ladder so you can see the top seal. You should be able to lift up the seal enough to see a seam running right behind the interior wall. When they took the old seal off they sealed that seam with silicone. Maybe they should have used Butel, but they didn't. I am over in the Carolinas now, and we have had some bad storms which would have caused some real bad leaks, but this time not a drop.
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Keith,
The 1998 models did not use a drip pan in their design. SMC era Beaver coaches were built with the idea that the slide was not going to leak, so a drip pan was not needed. We now know that their assumption about slide leaks was wrong, because slides are our worst leak points.
By the time that Monaco was designing Beaver slides, the idea was leak control instead of total leak prevention. So some, but not all of their slide designs used a drip pan as part of leak control.
Since I have seen slide leaks in so many different locations on your design slide, I do not think that the fitting of a drip pan into your slide design would be worth the effort.
Gerald
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Keith,
i origianlly thought the Butyl was old or something...it was not. I purchased some just in case of a bad batch.
Same results. After all the work it was frustrating to see the lovely bead of sealant stretch out like bubble gum across the top of the slide. What a mess.
As far as removing the cabinets I did not, not sure how you would go about the process without messing up the finish. What i did was to manuver the slide to about a inch from full out and applied the silicone with a tip extension under the wiper seal. Then i used soem 1/2 inch pvc in sections to smooth the silicone from inside the slide at full in. It was tedious but now knock on wood the leaks have subdsided.
I would love to be able to remove the cabinets to get at the issue a little better but have not found anyone who has done so who could give advice on how to acomplish this task. Maybe someone here has had it done or done it themselves can help. At $4.00 per gallon for diesel it looks like a good year to do some massive projects anyway.
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I forgot to mention a product to clean the stains off of the interior in case you have had a leak.
Folex stain remover. It can be found at Home Depot in the household cleaner department. Just spray on lightly rub in with your fingers or soft bristle brush and wipe with a white soft towel and the stain is history.
It even removed the old stains that were on the coach when i bought it.
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OK, to all for clairification. My top exterior seal / gasket is bad and as I mentioned earlier the inside seal is mostly ripped off. That said, with the slope of the slide out roof and a slight pitch as well I cant imagine rain getting uphill far enough to leak from the seam by the inside wall surface. I take it that is what everyone is saying. Good grief, no wonder I couldnt find it.
Dave and Sharon stated that the seam could be caulked from the outside when the exterior gasket is removed. Were they able to clear away the old caulking?
Q-1, What is the beas way to replace the top inner Gasket / seal?
Q-2 Does the slide need to be removed and if not how does one get to the inner seal on the bathroom end?
Q-3 BCS told me to pull down the cabinets and caulk a seam inside. Are they refering to the seam by the inner wall and is this all necessary if it can be caulked as David mentioned above?
Q-4 What should I know about replacing the outer seal / gasket?
Sorry to all about this abundance of questions but I have gotten several shop opinions and all backed out when they saw it.
All the best
Keith
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For all that may need the information on where to get the slide seals for '98, 99, etc' Patriots, here is some helpful info:
1) The bottom is called "Skirtboard" and the proper size is 1/8 x 4" order from Rubbercal.com, Santa Ana, CA (800) 379-9152 @ .73/ft
2) The outer side/top seal is item #SD268T (white) or SD268TBLK (blk) from uni-grip.com, Upper Sandusky, OH (800) 257-2289 @ $1.50/ft (approx 30' needed). Rubber is EPDM rubber and is best bonded with cyanoacrylate (crazy glue). It has been suggested to also use 3M adhesive promoter to aid in adheshion. I asked them if the black has any better UV protection than the white and they said it did not, but they recommended the black in most cases as it does not show dirt and complements the coach color in most cases.
Hope this may be of help to some....
Jim
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Jim
All that is great info. and sure to be helpful to more than just me in the future.
As there are many types of seals used in different models, could you describe the seals or the model these numbers refer to?
Keith
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The Uni-grip site shows pictures of each seal type they sell. The two (black and white seals) I referred to are called "tape seals". I only know that these work on late 90's Patriot (and Thunders) such as my '99. Gerald or others will probably know better than me what other years can use these same "P" type seals.
The other "skirtboard" seal is more of a draft control seal attached to the bottom of the slide cutout. The bottom of the slide drags across this flapper type seal, which keeps cold (or warm) air out, as well as protects the rollers from dirt and dust. I know because mine was pretty much missing and one roller rusted tight, recently ripping out of the floor. I have not lubricated all rollers and replaced that skirtboard seal.
Hope this helps.
Jim
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I have a 98 Marquis on the Magnum chassis with one kitchen/salon slide. We have owned it for a year, and last winter it developed a case of sunlight being visible under the kitchen cabinets and the couch. On checking, I discovered there is a 4" wide strip of neoprene rubber that seals off the joint between the bottom of the slide and the coach body. Some is Ok but most is tattered and torn. I have since discovered on here, that is it called skirtboard and is readily available on the Left Coast. I bought a 24' long roll of it from Rubber Sheet Roll for about $20. and am partway through drilling out the pop rivets to remove the old. It will require a contortionist to complete the install, but...... it'll be OK.
Day before yesterday we had a short sharp rain from the driver's side, and the cabinets over the couch ran with water. I had to close the slide to stop it. On checking today, there is a similar skirtboard on top of the slide. But in this case it is installed with two rubber seals (matching the slide side seals) one outside the wall for the slide flange to seal against when it's closed, and one on the inside for when it's open. On the outside there is another skirtboard and all three are pop riveted to the body at the top edge of the slide opening The seals seem fine, but the skirtboard is in tatters.
Since all three seals are on a single set of pop rivets, this could be a tricky repair. Particularly since the inside seal is in a horizontal cavity behind the cabinets about 18" square? Do I drill and pop rivet in new ones to hold the inside seal in place, then drill out the existing rivets and use the holes to secure a new outer seal and skirtboard? Anybody have good ideas on this?
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A little more research has show that the d-seals are actually glued in place, while the skirtboard is rivetted to the inside of the body opening. The skirtboard is rivetted to an aluminium strip that reinforces the body opening. It is actually two piece of Aluminium bar that are laminated vertically and which I am calling the aluminium seal backer strip My best guess at this point is that the problem is the deterioration of the skirtboard. It no longer keeps a driving rain out of the d-seal area when the slide is open and it bunches up and lifts the d-seal to open a path for the water to get in. The water is then coming over the inner edge of the slide roof and running down the back of the cabinet face.
There are two possible lines of defence. One is the skirtboard and d-seals, and one is the joint between the slide fibreglass roof and the back of the cabinet face.
Looking at access, it is unlikely that the roof-cabinet joint could be caulked without removing the slide from the coach, It is also unlikely that the inside d-seal could be replaced with the cabinets in place. Possibly with the skirtboard removed I could glue a new d-seal on the inside of the body wall.
My current plan is to
1. cut the skirt off cleanly from the outside, leaving as little as possible of the skirtboard left. (Done with slide 'half-open')
2. Reach under the opening edge from the outside and re-glue the existing interior d-seal anywher I feel it necessary.
3. Peel the existing exterior d-seal off (currently glued on) to expose the aluminium seal backer strip.
4. Drill holes in the aluminium at about 3" centers along the entire length of the seal.
5. Using a combination of contact cement and screws (#6 x 1/2" stainless countersunk head robertsons) mount a new skirtboard.
6. Repair and reglue the corners of the inner top and side d-seals
7. Glue a new exterior d-seal on the skirtboard, the same place as the interior d-seal mounts on the existing original skirtboard.
8. Caulk the top edge of the skirtboard to prevent any water from going over the skirtboard and down the inner side to get inside.
I realize that mounting the skirtboard on the inside of the body would be better, but I don't want to drop the cabinets. I think that would involve a complete cabinet refinish and I just don't want to go there.
Comments?
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Bump - I hope that is permissible? Thanks
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I added a slide topper. Ordered the topper 6 inches wider than needed to give the vertical sides some protection. This addition has made a big difference in water related problems. Topper was installed by Beaver Coach Sales in Bend.
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Joel, we also have a 1997 Patriot, did you notice any change in heat gain.
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Joel, we would like to know a little more about your slide topper. I can already tell it is going to be a pain to keep debris off the top and coming in with the slide.
Barb
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Barb,
There are several negatives to a slide topper awning. First most toppers are very noisy in high wind conditions, and can make it difficulty to sleep. Next most toppers will pool water that can freeze in cold weather, so you can not put the slide in until the ice is removed.
My coach does not have toppers and there is no way that I would install one, but that is my personal opinion, and I know everyone does not agree. I carry an extension pole with a screw-on holder for a bath towel that I just run over the top of the slide while standing on the ground on remove any leaves or snow that collects on the slide when it is moving day. To me that is a much better solution than a topper on SMC era coaches that do not have flat top slides.
Gerald
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Heat gain??? No, probably the opposite. You are adding protection.
I have owned this coach for 9+ years, and added the topper in 2007. The problems suggested have been the much lesser issues. I have had to bring my slide in on only two occasions due to high winds. Have had puddling in heavy down pours but not with normal rains. Water drains off when the slide is retracted. I used to clean and dry my slide prior to closing as Gerald expressed. Snow n ice I avoid, as I follow the seasons, and am a full time RVer.
The topper is a CareFree / Sideout Kover II / 185-4641, with a 191.25” Rollbar. As stated, I ordered the awning 6” wider than needed to protect the vertical joint at the side wall.
I would strongly recommend the addition of a topper to your slide. The topper gives the opening protection when closed as well. Works the same as your window awning by diverting the water away.
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I've always had slide toppers and enjoyed them very much and am considering them for the Beaver. Never did have to bring in the slide due to high wind and if water puddled it's kind of like so what. Either it drys out or goes away when the slide comes in. Big advantage was lowered heat load and very little to no debris to contend with.
Dick and Pat
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I'm on the fence. There does seem to be some affect on heat gain, and I've rarely found debris between slide roof and topper. We've yet to have a leaky slideout either, so the topper probably assists in that regard. Several members have installed innovative drain modifications to help keep water from puddling on their toppers, though I've personally never found it to be a big issue.
The downside consists of the noise created when they flap al night in a big wind, esp on the Oregon coast in winter, and I often get up and pull windward slides in. There are various remedies for the flapping, but if the fabric stayed tight, we wouldn't need them; adjusting tension is difficult, or not manufacturer advised. One December in Eden, ID, after waiting out a snowy thanksgiving, I had to get on an icy roof to break loose packed snow and ice on all four toppers before we could pull the slides in to leave - the toppers were jammed. Lastly, the living room topper's fabric once wouldn't roll entirely up and hung out of its roller with the slide closed; a major bolt had fallen out and the part was ridiculously hard to get. That's when I first discovered regrets about owning Carefree awnings and toppers. I'm not alone in that dept.
Joel
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Finished my seal replacement project today on the slide:
First step was to remove the outside d-Seal. It was glued on with a neoprene glue and was quite hard to remove. But a little research on neoprene glue showed that it is affected by alcohol, so I filled a spray bottle with isopropyl alcohol and sprayed at the root of the joint. It would them easily unpeel about 6-8" they respray and pull again.
The biggest part of the job was cleaning the aluminium strip that the d-seal was glued to, I couldn't find an effective cleaner or solvent, so it ended up being a brute force and ignorance type job.
Once the aluminum strip was clean I took a box knife and cut off the neoprene strip flush with the bottom of the aluminium strip.
Removal of the neoprene gave me great acces to the inner d-seal and I was able to easily reglue the places where it was hanging down loose. I used 3M Super Weatherstrip Adhesive 80010 and it worked very well. The initial bond was enough to hold the strip in position as it dried. I opened the slide, putting pressure on the seal to hold it while the glue set after I finished for the day.
The access also gave me a clear run to the joint between the fibreglass slide roof and the interior cabinets and slide trim, so I caulked that joint while it was exposed. That way if water ever gets back in, it may well get out again.
The next step was to glue the new skirtboard to the aluminium strip. Same 3M adhesive. Did it in one pass with glue on both the aluminium and the neoprene skirtboard. Left it long enough to go get a coffe and then placed it.
I then took #8 x 1/2" self-drilling SS screws and placed them every 6 inches along the aluminium strip. This was the most difficult part of the job because the rubber mat meant that you needed to apply a fair force to the drill to get the screw to bite. Used a Black & Decker battery drill and set the override to #4 to limit the torgue applied to the threads.
Then took a cloth and wiped up the cuttings from both on top of the rubber and underneath it.
Final step was to put on a new D-seal from uni-grip. I ordered the one referenced in this thread, but it came with a flap running down from the d-seal, much like the vertical slide seals. It came with an attached glue strip, so I used that to glue it on. Cut the ends at an angle and used Loctite superglue to glue the corners to the existing seals. Now there's a product I wouldn't recommend. The Loctite bottle has two side triggers which both have to be squeezed to deliver the glue....in a drop roughly the size of a flea turd. Well!
Haven't had it in a rainstorm yet but there's supposed to be some Friday. If it leaks I'll post. Overall this one was tedious because of needing to keep moving my ladder. If I'd had 2 sections of staging and a helper to bring me stuff, this would have qualified as easy.