BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Norm Green on October 20, 2019, 06:45:50 PM
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Early this morning we found out that our ‘08 Patriot was destroyed by fire. The coach was parked in our driveway and plugged into a 30 amp outlet. The coach has been parked in the same place since we returned from Branson. Unfortunately we have been out of town and we were not home during this tragedy. The fire obviously started in the rear portion of the coach but not sure where. The outlet connection at the house was undamaged. I suspect a possible electrical short in the coach. Does anyone have any idea of what might have started the fire?
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One area to check is the Transfer box. That's were the Shore Power and Generator wires attach. If the screw terminals are loose heat can build up and start a fire.
Here's a picture (not mine) of Transfer switch that had loose terminals.
Mine is mounted in the celling of the last bay. The last photo is on my TS (SureGuard) - probably same as yours. I took this photo when I had the cover off to check the lug tightness.
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Norm, So sorry to hear about your coach being destroyed. It seems odd that with your coach parked for a length of time connected to a 30 amp supply that it would draw enough amps to overheat a connection and start a fire. With my 06 PT once the batteries are charged up it doesn't draw hardly any amps from the shore connection, mine is 50 amp I might see a few amps off and on on the computer screen.
Was the fire department able to find the area where the fire started, that would give a starting point as to the cause.
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Norm,
Sorry to hear about your coach. You didn't' say how long you were home after plugging it in so I'll assume a few days and that everything was OK up to that point. As Mike noted, a bad connection in the transfer relay could cause overheating. However, you noted that the 30A outlet was OK. Also the breaker apparently didn't trip before the fire started. That said, I'd suspect a battery connection, maybe not at the batteries but something directly tied to them. They were probably fully charged so had a lot of current to supply to a quasi short to ground which could generate a lot of heat. Keep us posted on what you find.
Steve
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Norm and Cynthia, so sorry for the coach fire! Glad you guys are okay!
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Some years back my daughter’s old trailer was plugged into our 30 amp house RV outlet beside our garage. One day I was at my workbench when a gullywasher went through, and I stepped to the rear garage door to check it out, then back to my bench. All was fine except for the super downpour. A second later I heard an odd sound and went to the door again. The adapter from our cord to hers was laying on the concrete nearby to my right shooting sparks and flame gloriously high. Surmising that the cord at the house outlet might be too hot to just grab and pull, I hurried to the nearby electric panel and flipped the RV breaker.
At first I’d assumed daughter had overloaded something in her trailer, but she wasn’t even home. The downpour was heavy enough to put the adapter slightly under water on the flat concrete and had shorted it, somehow without kicking the breaker. I learned a lesson and never let connectors lay on solid surfaces now. I moved her connection above the surface and under a makeshift “hood”.
If Norm’s place experienced a downpour while he was gone, and a connector was similarly exposed, that is also a possible culprit. I can attest that despite being underwater, sparks and flame can shoot in a show to rival fireworks. And if the connector was near the rear of the coach...
Joel
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Sorry to hear about the loss but we are glad no one was hurt
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Norm, was there damage to your home as well? Sorry for your loss.
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First, Mr. & Mrs. Green, so sorry for the tragic loss of your coach. Just glad no one was hurt, and that your house was not damaged.
Thanks for that information, Joel. I do have my connection lying on the concrete, but I keep it under the coach where it connects so it doesn't get wet. I will put it on a block or something, now.
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Norm, What a heart breaker! We love all the memories our Coach provides, hopefully your insurance will help put this behind you.
The transfer relay, power cord connections, inverter/converter are all in N.E.C. approved electrical enclosures for that reason. I have seen totally destroyed transfer relays and related wiring but the fire was contained in the box. I would be more inclined to look in the battery compartment. I have seen more than a half dozen coaches catch fire in that area. There is a lot of energy stored in that area and battery cables get tangled up over the years of extending and retracting the battery tray and or replacing batteries. Good forensic inspection from a RVIA certified technician should help identify the source of the fire. Sorry for your loss! Fred
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So sorry for your loss and so glad you were not in the Coach when it happened.
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SO sorry to hear of the fire. It was a really nice coach and both of you were enjoying it so. Now to get another and all of the stuff that goes with it will be a chore.
Thinking os you.
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Mike, I saw in your bottom photo a couple of wires on the left side have current sensors. Do you have any idea who the manufacturer or part number is. Need to replace the sensor in my coach. Any advice is appreciated.THANKS! George.
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Norm & Cynthia,
Sorry to hear about your coach. Such a tragic loss. The unexpected can be a real heart breaker. Here’s hoping you can find a replacement and get back to doing what we all love so much.
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Early this morning we found out that our ‘08 Patriot was destroyed by fire. The coach was parked in our driveway and plugged into a 30 amp outlet. The coach has been parked in the same place since we returned from Branson. Unfortunately we have been out of town and we were not home during this tragedy. The fire obviously started in the rear portion of the coach but not sure where. The outlet connection at the house was undamaged. I suspect a possible electrical short in the coach. Does anyone have any idea of what might have started the fire?
I just saw the photo of your coach. Wow. So sorry to see that.
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Norm, it goes without saying that you and Cynthia have my sympathy.
As soon as I saw your photo on Facebook I called Karl. We agreed that based only on the photo, the fire probably started below the slide. I nominated the transfer switch as the culprit. Karl pointed out that cord reels have "wiper contacts". I think his theory was that if the wipers corrode or wear there will be resistance and resulting heat.
I don't know what cord reel was used in '08. Our the cord reel in our '04 Monterey mechanically failed about year 10. I removed it, took it apart and found broken plastic gears. I don't recall inspecting the wipers but, internally, it seemed cheaply made. I gave up thinking about repairing it and converted to the method used in our previous cheap trailers...coil the cord by hand.
Karl reads this forum and will probably weigh in.
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I want to thank everyone for their caring thoughts. I arrived home from Seattle last night and went out to the wrecking yard the coach is at for the first time today. I was astonished at the amount of damage the fire caused, much more than in the photos. The engine is sitting on the ground along with the radiator and much of the suspension. A couple of the wheels are partially melted and the tires are Burt to the steel bands. The coach looks like the frame is broke in half and the bottom of the coach is resting on the ground. There is smoke damage everywhere, including inside my tool box. I have tried to remove the damage from a few pieces and I think it is a losing battle. I’ll probably just call everything a loss.
The coach had been sitting in the same spot in my driveway where I have kept it for the last several years. It was plugged into a dedicated 30 amp service, same one I have always used. It had been parked in that spot since we got home from Branson. I use a 30 amp extension cord between the cord reel, which is not extended, and the house. The collection at the house is dry and under cover and I bring the other end of the extension cord into the bay to connect it so it doesn’t sit on the ground. The batteries did not burn and the damage to the rear of the coach I can’t even to begin to determine where it started.
We plan to eventually get another coach but I’m dreading having to deal with the insurance company on both the coach value and our personal items. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Norm, Thanks for the update, it would be really good if you could have found out where the fire had its start, sounds like it got started in the rear for some reason and had to have really gotten hot to cause all the damage.
The best of luck dealing with the insurance company.
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So very sorry for this tragic fire. Glad you were not in it for sure. Hopefully the insurance company will work to get everything sorted out.
Very scary to see this and wonder what started the fire.
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Norm
I recall a coach owner who's coach burned while on the road. He contacted a private fire inspector to determine the fires source. According to the owner, he was thankful for having it done, due to the insurance company having excuses that was not in his favor. According to the owner it was resolved only because he had a certified inspector that was working for him and not the insurance company.
Good Luck and sorry for your loss.
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Norm, It takes a lot of courage to look at what is left of your Coach. I would guess it is overwhelming at least. After looking at all the photos I am pretty sure the slide rooms hydraulic pressurized system became the catalyst to spray that area with flame. Again I would encourage you to be proactive and have a RVIA certified technician evaluate the cause. Get ready for the insurance non-sense for they will not be kind. Blessings, Fred
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Norm,
Another possibility is a slow propane leak that ignited from a small spark, possibly generated by a relay activation in the inverter/charger. But do have an expert look at it.
Steve
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A little more information. I just spoke to my neighbor who lives across the street where the coach ended up. He said that the tow company had to get a special truck with a big enough crane out of Memphis to load the coach on the trailer. They also had to use a bobcat to help move the coach around. The neighbor said it took them over 6 hours to load the coach onto the trailer once the special truck arrived. He said the neighbor next door to him commented that she heard a large explosion about the time of the fire. I had taken the propane out of the coach about two years ago and put in an induction stove, the coach was all electric. The only propane on board was a small bottle for the bbq and it survived intact.
Still no clue how it started. One question that has been bothering me is how it rolled. With air brakes and no air the brakes on all wheels should have locked. Any one have any explanation?
I thought I might be able to recover a few things like some of my tools and a few things in the front of the coach but everything is so covered with soot, water damaged and heavy with smoke damage, I have been unable to even come close to cleaning anything.
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Norm, Now that is interesting that you said that the coach rolled, so the coach has maxi (spring) brakes on the drive axle which had to have been set, once the coach air bleeds off the brakes auto set. Is the site where it was parked really steep, did the fire dept drag it out there or? I've seen the fire dept drag a vehicle out to save a building in the past. Very interesting.
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Actually the spring brakes only are on the drive axle not all the wheels , all but the drive axle are free to roll. but still it shouldn’t have been able to roll. Only air pressure can release them. Well , backing them off with a wrench, or if they were out of adjustment and not fully applying pressure also You certainly would know that when you parked it. Very suspicious that it rolled and nobody admits to releasing the brakes to get it away from the house, which makes the most sense.
Truly tragic , my hopes for the best out of this .
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One question that has been bothering me is how it rolled. With air brakes and no air the brakes on all wheels should have locked. Any one have any explanation?
Are you sure it rolled? It could have been dragged onto a flatbed trailer, but more likely the tow crew just "caged" the spring brakes. There is a tool (looks like a threaded rod with a "tee shape" on the end) that is manually inserted into the spring brake chamber then the nut on the rod is tightened to compress the large spring inside the brake chamber. That releases the spring brake. As mentioned, the spring brakes are only on the drive axle.
We are interested to hear what the insurance examiner of fire investigator says is the cause of the fire. Maybe that explosion reported was a tire blowing out from the fire.
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The coach rolled across the street while ablaze and the fire department didn’t get there until it was in the neighbors yard. My wife and I were out of town when it happened. The parking brake was set when I parked the coach. The driveway is a bit of an incline but it was on blocks and I air-leveled it. I haven’t heard back from the Fire Marshall yet. I’ll go out to the coach again tomorrow but I don’t expect to find anything new. I will try to post a couple of pictures. This whole thing makes no sense at all.
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Norm,
Just my two cents... The heat disabled the parking brake and as the heat from the fire caused the air in the tank to build up pressure. The air pressure was high enough to release the brakes allowing your coach to move downhill and then caused the air tank or air bags to explode. Let us know what you find tomorrow.
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Norm,
I believe that your parking brake released and allowed the coach to roll down hill because the heat on the drive axle air cans caused the springs in the air cans that apply the brakes to loose tension, therefore releasing the brake.
Gerald
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Norm,
If the fire was intense enough to melt things, it could be hot enough to make the park brake spring lose tension and as Gerald suggests the increased air pressure inside the cannister would help overpower the spring and release the slack adjuster. Fred
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It's fun to speculate -
I don't see anyway that the springs (both sides) got hot enough to loose tension. The springs would need to get red hot to loose tension. I think it is more likely the heat melted the back of the pressure housings (or center section) letting the springs "blow out".
We need a photo :D
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You are right Mike, the springs thickness compared to the canaster stamped thickness validates your point. Fred
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The springs do not have to get red hot to fail. See https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1241122 and select "View Conference". Spring constant drops off due to heat at about 500C and accelerates as temperature increases (see fig 6 in ref). The temperatures of a normal fire (e.g campfire) are 700C in the fire, 585C in the middle of the campfire (coals but not flames), and 400C at the outer edge of the fire. Looking at the picture, it appears the coach got hot enough for the frame to fail. Tires melt at 600C. Bottom line, IMHO, the heat was more than enough for the air brake springs to fail. Steel or iron must get to 900C to get red.
(Edit note: specified location of paper on web reference above)
Steve
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Gentleman, air systems and spring brakes on rear axles. Think about this thought how spring brakes
operates. Air pressure release the spring brakes, or called maxi-brakes to move Motorhome down
the road for some reason rolling down the road you lose your air pressure. What happens after the
air pressure on motorhome dash gauge drops to 60 psi air warning buzzer sounds , when air pressure
drops to 50 psi the spring brake apply and lock up wheel and cannot be released . The only way to
release the spring brake or what called maxi-brake ( repair air leak or manual insert brake release
With a t bolt made to manual release spring brake.) the spring brake is used as a parking brake and
Applying air will release spring brake by pushing in yellow button. Last thought inside of brake drum
there are ( 2 ) small springs that keep brake shoes tension on rollers the movement apply and release
brake shoes. It would take very little heat around these springs to loose tension and would release
the brake shoes against brake drum and the coil inside the spring brakes did not release arm
movement on parking brake applied. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I assume that a 08 would have disc brakes, I have to go look but I believe that the maxi brakes on my coach have stamped steel cans. If the fire got hot enough to melt the cans I would think that there would not be any tires left on the rear of that coach.
Norm do you know just how the coach ended up out in the street?
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The build sheet indicates my coach had the Roadmaster S chassis and did have disc brakes on the drive axle. The fire was obviously very hot and the rear tires were burnt down to the steel bands. Here are a couple of pictures.