Author Topic: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help  (Read 4733 times)

Mike Nilson

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Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« on: March 25, 2021, 01:53:09 AM »
Good evening everyone,

I have a 2006 Patriot Thunder 525 Belmont 42 (CAT C-13 / Allison HD4000) that the Aladdin System is not receiving any power and I can not figure out why.

A little history; I had just serviced the batteries, cleaned the all the terminals, cleaned the Big Boy, replaced the rocker switch for the large awning, and replaced a motor on my electrical cord reel. Took the entire day. When everything was put back together and the power turned back on everything except the Aladdin system worked (it was functioning prior). Power is flowing through the fuse in the engine compartment of the coach for the Aladdin system. But no power is being received at any of the joysticks or the modules that I have found. The TV's receive no signal from the Aladdin System and for the life of me I cannot find the control module that is supposed be be behind the dash. The front fuse box mentions their are Aladdin fuse's in the cabinet by the Aqua Hot, but I can't seem to locate that ether. I've checked everywhere I can think of including in the cabinets above the driver and passenger.

The reset switch has ~.05v
Fuse in the Rear ~13.67v
No blown fuses in the Rear Engine Compartment, Closet, or Front Electrical Box

Every fuse in both the rear box and the front box is intact. Engine starts and runs. Generator starts and runs. Inverter seems to be functioning normally... Where does the system deliver power to after it leaves the rear box? is there a fuse/breaker/surge protector in-between? Where have others seen the CM located?

There are about 6 Modules inside the 3rd compartment back (behind the fuel tank) mounted to the ceiling outside the frame. There is some sort of Aladdin Junction box in a hidden compartment between the fame next to the HWH brain same compartment.

There is a small ~2" x 2" module with 8 to 10 all white wires behind the steering wheel.

Reset switch is in above the passengers head media compartment.
2006 Beaver Patriot Thunder 525; Belmont 42 Quad Slide Powered by a CAT C-13

Fred Brooks

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2021, 02:12:35 AM »
   Mike , If you scroll down to coach assist, Then scroll down just past the Beaver equiptment manuals header are the manuals for alladin including trouble shooting, hope this helps, Fred
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Joel Ashley

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2021, 02:19:08 AM »
Mike, there are Aladdin Troubleshooting documents in the Coach Assist section of the Technical menu if you sign in at the Main BAC website (blue linked top right of this page). 

However I suspect your issue is more basic than those papers can assist with, since power likely isn’t getting to the main module.  Hopefully it’s a simple matter of your maintenance efforts inadvertently loosening a wire/connector somewhere.

Others here with coaches similar to yours will have to help with module locations.  Most of mine are in the dark water compartment in front of the curbside rear wheel well and one in the streetside chassis electrical bay.  The main Aladdin module and reset switch seem to change location quite a bit from coach to coach.
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Mike Nilson

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2021, 02:58:04 AM »
I've spent quite a bit of time reading the troubleshooting guides and general googling as well as searching the forum before I decided to post for help.

Joel, are your modules behind shrouds? I haven't actually exposed the curbside black tank yet. Its behind a stainless steel shroud I know its not on the passengers side as I recently had to service the AH.
2006 Beaver Patriot Thunder 525; Belmont 42 Quad Slide Powered by a CAT C-13

Joel Ashley

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2021, 04:14:53 AM »
Mike, your coach is the same year but a much different model from our short Monterey. 

No, there’s no “shrouds”.  The black and gray tanks stretch across from behind the wet bay’s whiteboard to a handleless bay just forward of the curbside rear wheels, nowhere near the water tank and Hydronic unit in the handled bay to the rear of the curbside front wheel well.  The handleless bay looks like just a body panel, but has draw latches hiding under the bottom edge.  Many new owners aren’t aware of that bay, but perhaps you are, or don’t have such a panel.

Most of the Aladdin modules are on the left bay wall there and readily accessible.  It sounds like you may have already located your modules, although I only have 4 modules, Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS), DC Interface (solar & house), temperature and compass, and tanks.  My diagram shows 3 bus taps (junction “boxes”) that the modules route through to the controller... not sure where those taps are hiding.  There is a box not shown in my diagrams that’s on the upper part of the electrical bay’s (streetside forwardmost) left wall, and it’s labeled Aladdin J1939 Bridge.  The control module itself is likely under the dash or behind the driver’s left console. 

As I said, they’re all different, so someone with the same Patriot would be more helpful.

Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Scott Shearer

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2021, 06:34:13 AM »
Mike,

On our 06 Thunder, the Aladdin VCM (controller) is on a shelf above the driver's seat behind a removable trim piece that runs the full width above the front overhead cabinets (see image below). The trim piece is held on by cabinet latches and Velcro, you have to pull pretty hard to remove it. The trim piece is a tight fit, I would use blue tape to protect the cabinets at each end.

The VCM has two 12-volt power sources, one is constant house battery power, and one is ignition switch power. The ignition power is what causes the system to wake-up when the key is turned on and gives you the countdown when the key is turned off.

Main power is supplied from the rear run box pcb5, it is protected by a 7.5-amp fuse labeled ‘7.5A Aladdin’. This circuit supplies constant house battery power to the Aladdin VCM, power goes to the Aladdin reset switch then to the ‘+12 SWX’ pin on the ‘House Bus’ of the VCM. This is the main power source for the VCM and allows you to power on the Aladdin system from the joysticks or the remote tank monitor in the service bay. The Aladdin VCM WILL NOT power on without this circuit hot.

There is a second fused circuit located in the front run box that supplies 12VDC ignition power to the ‘+12 IN’ pins on the ‘Engine Bus’ port of the VCM. This circuit allows the Aladdin system to power on/off with the ignition key. The Aladdin system can function with the ‘Engine Bus’ port disconnected but you would have no engine/trip information and the system will not power on/off with the ignition key, you must use a Joystick or the remote tank monitor. This circuit is in the front run box on pcb #10 and on our coach is incorrectly labeled ‘15A Level’ (also in the wiring diagrams).

The Aladdin Junction box that you are seeing in near the HWH brain is the J1939 Bridge. The J1939 Bridge converts the J1939 data from the engine ECM to J1587 that the Aladdin VCM understands.


Edit:
"The front fuse box mentions their are Aladdin fuse's in the cabinet by the Aqua Hot, but I can't seem to locate that ether. I've checked everywhere I can think of including in the cabinets above the driver and passenger."

I’ve found that label on the door of the front run box to somewhat inaccurate and mis-leading. The only Aladdin related components I’ve seen in the area of the Aqua Hot are the tank level sensors and the compass module.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 07:02:21 AM by Scott Shearer »
Scott & Susie Shearer
2006 Patriot Thunder
Lexington IV 40'
Cat C13
2015 JKU Hard Rock
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Scott Shearer

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2021, 04:50:51 PM »
Mike, you mentioned replacing the awning rocker switch. I’m assuming that switch is above the entry door (like ours). Could you have disturbed connections related to the Aladdin power/reset switch or the switch to the VCM? The wiring harness for the awning switch and Aladdin are both in that same area.
Scott & Susie Shearer
2006 Patriot Thunder
Lexington IV 40'
Cat C13
2015 JKU Hard Rock

Mike Nilson

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2021, 11:35:35 PM »
Scott,

Thank you for the advise to check behind the Trim. I’d never of thought to look there. I had to fly across the county for a few days. When I get back I’ll check that spot and I’ll keep this feed posted.

When I changed the rocker switch all I did was unplug the 2 wires from the broken rocker and plug them on the new rocker. Pretty simple, but I’ll keep that idea in mind when I get back.
2006 Beaver Patriot Thunder 525; Belmont 42 Quad Slide Powered by a CAT C-13

Mike Nilson

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2021, 03:17:34 AM »
I was able to find the Aladdin VCM behind the trim near where Scott suggested. No incoming power to the VCM.

I changed the fuse in the RRB just in case their was a problem with the one that was installed. Power is flowing through the fuse and the connected wire is live leaving the RRB. Does anyone know of any inline fuses? Probably 3A? I fear a broken wire somewhere...
2006 Beaver Patriot Thunder 525; Belmont 42 Quad Slide Powered by a CAT C-13

Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2021, 05:55:04 PM »
Mike,
Check the connectors on both ends of the engine data power cable that feeds the VIM. See pgs 9-10 of the 04 Patriot Wiring Diagrams for the layout.
Steve
Steve
2015-          07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
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2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Mike Nilson

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2021, 02:05:33 AM »
I found several wires in the white connections above RRB that were completely rotted away. 2 of the wires that I repaired were the wires running to the Switch. I ran Jumpers before I started moving them to see if it would power up the VCM and presto it did. I was able to pull the pins and soldered them back together and now I have ~13.4V through the new repairs. Unfortunately there seems to be a break somewhere past the harness connection. I'll probably cut out a few feet of wire for the switches and solder new wire in its place to get past the break(s). Hopefully that fixes the issue.

2006 Beaver Patriot Thunder 525; Belmont 42 Quad Slide Powered by a CAT C-13
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Mike Nilson

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2021, 05:58:10 AM »
Maybe this will help some others in the future; I got everything working again. Above the Rear Run Box is about 7 Molex type connectors of various sizes with all of the 12v wiring running from the RRB to the 12 systems around the Coach. 5 of the wires running from the RRB to the Molex connectors were rotted ether on the input, output, or on both sides on the Molex connectors. One was rotted 2/3 of the way through causing poor intermediate power connection. The others were just sitting inside of the Molex connections corroded and not connected to the internal pin any longer. 2 had pins that had turned to dust. Its a miracle that my Aladdin System worked at all prior to cleaning connections.

4 wires from the J1 Circuit were totally corroded at the 6/9/12-Pin Molex(s) and needed to be repaired (2 Purple & 1 Red; 12 Gauge AWG & 1 Black; 8 Gauge AWG). An additional wire that fed the a component to the solar was also completely corroded and needed repaired (Yellow; 8 Gauge AWG).

I choose to solder new wire in because I don't prefer butt connectors as I feel most have poor long term reliability.
2006 Beaver Patriot Thunder 525; Belmont 42 Quad Slide Powered by a CAT C-13

Mike Nilson

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2021, 06:55:36 AM »
Scott, Where is your "AC Interface Module"? The only looming issue I have remaining is that the Aladdin is showing no voltage on leg 1 or leg 2 and amps are "OFF" (no sun right now, but solar was working while the sun was out). I am presently connected to a 50AMP shore power. The batteries, inverter and 120v systems seem to be functioning normally. The troubleshooting guide says check the Automatic Transfer Switch and the AC Interface Module. I assume the Automatic transfer switch is in the medium sized black box on the curb side bay just in front of the wet bay?

Do your guys have some suggestions on why I have 120v power that seems to be functioning normally, but the Aladdin shows "No AC Power Present"?

Is it normal to see the house batteries always reading AMP "250 CHG"?
2006 Beaver Patriot Thunder 525; Belmont 42 Quad Slide Powered by a CAT C-13

Scott Shearer

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2021, 08:26:34 AM »
Mike,

Your coach doesn’t use an AC Interface Module, it uses an ATS Interface Module (ATSM) instead. The AC Interface Module is the older style interface that requires the use of instrument transformers and current transformers. The ATS Interface Module is the newer style interface that uses a serial data connection to communicate directly with Automatic Transfer Switch. Your ATSM is visible in the lower right of the image that you posted.

Yes, your Automatic Transfer Switch should be where you described. Surge Guard 40250 should be the original equipment for your coach. It is possible that your ATSM is bad or the circuit board inside the ATS is bad. If your ATS has been replaced it may not be compatible with the ATSM.

Edit: I should have mentioned to check the data cable connection.

It isn’t normal to see 250 AMP charge on the ‘House Bat’ reading. Check the Aladdin Troubleshooting guide, there is a section that discusses the DC Interface Module, it may give you some insight as to your high house battery charge reading.

Scott
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 04:57:19 PM by Scott Shearer »
Scott & Susie Shearer
2006 Patriot Thunder
Lexington IV 40'
Cat C13
2015 JKU Hard Rock

Mike Nilson

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Re: Aladdin System Troubleshooting Help
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2021, 03:58:38 AM »
It appears that my transfer box has been swapped out by a previous owner and no longer communicates with the Aladdin System for the AC Leg 1 and Leg 2. Thanks for the information Scott!
2006 Beaver Patriot Thunder 525; Belmont 42 Quad Slide Powered by a CAT C-13
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