Transmission Pad - Patriot won't start

[Randy Stephenson]

I removed the chassis and house batteries and repainted the battery tray, and installed new house batteries ( I had the chassis batteries tested, they are at 13 volts and passed a load test).  I took before pictures, therefore, I am confident the cable connections are correct.  Also, have photo of Steves batteries for reference.

Now, when turning the key it does not start; the Drive, Neutral, and Reverse buttons are not lighting up (if I hold down the Neutral bottom down, it will light up and then turn off).  The mode red light is on, however, there s a symbol in the upper window that I do not recognize.  Please see attached photo.  Has anyone seen this symbol, if so, is it related to the no-start issue?

[Eric Maclean]

Randy
In the coach assist section of the forum you will find the Allison transmission troubleshooting manual
It should walk you through the diagnostic process.

Eric

[Randy Stephenson]

Thanks Eric!

[Randy Stephenson]

Eric, I found the cateye code display = primary shift selector fault. Troubleshooting is clear the active code 23XX.  Since the pad does not respond, I'm not sure how to clear the code.  Active indicator clearing procedure is defined as: Power Down, Manual, Self-Clearing.

Do you experience clearing a code?  Hopefully, a reader is not required?

[Gene Obie]

Allison youtube video (presumably newer models) indicate you can attempt to clear DTC codes by pressing and holding MODE for 10seconds. Not sure if it would apply to your vintage.

[Eric Maclean]

Randy
The picture you posted is not the cat eyes but what they call a double asterisk
The double asterisk indicates that the shift pad has no communication from the transmission.

See as this all started after having the batteries out and back in that would be the first place to start.
Recheck your battery cables for correct connections and proper polarity of all chassis battery connections
Check behind the batteries as it's not uncommon to have a cable drop down behind the batteries out of sight and miss being reconnected
Assuming they are all properly connected next move on to the transmission power feed
You should find two inline fuse holders near the chassis battery they should be 14 ga wires with an ATO 10 amp fuse in each
There should also be a pair of 14 ga dedicated ground wires as well.
One is for the engines ECM and the other is for the transmission TCM.
If the TCM fuse is not blown and there is a good 12+volt and the grounds are good move on to the transmission relay box
If those fuses are ok and their related grounds are good then move on to the forward electrical bay (under drives compartment)
Where you should find the black plastic transmission relay box remove the cover on that box and check the two fuses in it ( looking for a blower fuse)
Next go under the coach and check the transmission wire harness connector at the transmission for loose or poor connection.

Let us know what you find
Eric

[David T. Richelderfer]

In our 2004 Marquis the black plastic, clam-shell-like, transmission relay box with two fuses inside is located directly under the transmission keypad to the left of the driver's knee.  Access to the relay box is made by removing the vertical panel to the left of the driver's seat.  I found the relay box a few inches beneath the transmission keypad.

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Eric,
Interesting re the **. My Contessa started showing them awhile ago, but only with ignition key off. Had no issue starting or running.
Steve

[Randy Stephenson]

Eric, thank you for the suggestions.

1) I have checked the battery cables a few times, and studied photos I took before taking them out.  Positive, negative cables,  and three wires going to the negative are per the photos. 
 
2) Regarding the power feed, I have a one fuse block next to the chassis batteries which hold five fuses and one relay for the cooling fan.  All blade type fuses test for contiunity.  I have taken a fuse out and checked the pad, it does not have power, therefore, this test indicates the pad is receiving power from the fuse block.

3) Dedicated ground wires, I assume theses are the three wires that are connected to the negative battery post.  I have not seen any others.

4) Transmission relay box, I am not sure were this is?  I will need to revise the battery area for search.

5) My forward electrical bay has two boxes, one for leveling and one for the smart wheel.  I have checked the solenoid and it tests for power properly with key off and key on.  Also checked the buss bars, all contact test for 12 volts.  I have considered installing a back up solenoid for testing purposes.

6) I do have a black Allison box under the shift pad, is this the transmission relay box you referenced.  It has two 10 amp blade fuses, they check for continuity.  I have tested them by puling the fuses and the pad does not have power.  Therefore, I know that are connecting.  Dave, thank you for your suggestion regarding the back box.

7) I considered crawling under to check transmission connections.  Unfortunately, all my air is depleted and it's really setting low.  I'm not sure I can get to the harness.  Also, since it started before I ruled this out as a cause.

I have turned both battery bank switchs on and off, pulled fuses and powered the batteries on, reinstalled fuses and powered up hoping to re-boot the trans pad....without luck.  I am tankful I am not at a rest stop, on the road, or at a camp site with an issue like this, its really frusrating!

Yesterday I spoke to Allison and they suggested holding down the two arrow tabs at the same time for 12 seconds to reset codes, I had tried this a few days ago without luck; and tried again with him on the phone, no luck.  He recommended that I have a tech hook up a laptop and re-flash the system.  After many calls to Allison centers, I found one that will do field service.  So, I won't have to have the unit towed.  Unfortunately, they are 250 miles round trip away and charge by the mile; about $750, along with $190 an hour for the diagnostic time.

Additionally, I unhooked all connections going to the trans pad and re-connected them with no change.

One thing that is haunting me, when I pulled out of my barn the Beaver only ran for around 10 - 15 minutes, I moved forward and backward a few feet several times to try and level it the best that I could.  I am wondering if this quick forward / reverse  and limited run time may have not allowed significant time for the transmission to communicate neutral?

I am going to go through the above steps a few more times to assure no potential issue was missed.  Along with studying the Allison diagnostic manual 23XX code section again (thanks for the suggestion Eric).  If no luck, I'll have the Allison tech pay me a visit.

[Randy Stephenson]

I too find it interesting that Steve's Contessa started with the ** symbol!  I am now wondering if I am chasing the wrong issue!

[Randy Stephenson]

This is from the Allison trouble shooting manual, As Eric said, my picture is not cateyes!  It seems to be boxes with an x through them.  See the following:  I may send my photo to Allison to confirm its meaning is a cateye condition.

6–4. SHIFT SELECTOR DISPLAYS RELATED TO ACTIVE CODES
• “Cateye”—The backward slash segment and the middle horizontal segments (-\-) may be on under the following conditions:
— RSI link fault is active (code 23 12 or 23 14)
— When two COP timeouts occur within two seconds of each other (reference code 69 33)
— Shift selector display line fault is active (23 16)
• All Segments Displayed—All display segments will be illuminated if a severity 1 diagnostic code is present during initialization, or if an electrical code for solenoids A, B, C, D, E, or G is logged before initialization completes.

 WTEC III ELECTRONIC CONTROLS TROUBLESHOOTING MANUAL
 Main code 23 indicates a fault with a shift selector or the wiring between a shift selector and the ECU.
Main Code
Subcode
Meaning
23
12
Primary shift selector fault—a “cateye” (-/-) type display may occur

23
13
Primary shift selector mode function fault. Mode change not permitted

23
14
Secondary shift selector fault—a “cateye” (-/-) type display may occur

23
15
Secondary shift selector mode function fault. Mode change not permitted

23
16
Shift selector display line fault

NOTE:
A. Active Indicator Clearing Procedure:
• Power down • Manual
• Self-clearing
Before troubleshooting, read Paragraph 6–6.

B. Troubleshooting:
1. Clear the active indicator for code 23 XX. If code recurs, continue to Step (2). 2. Test for a poor connection at the shift selector.
Code 23 12 can result when the +5V line (wire 124) which powers the shift selector is shorted to ground. Wire 124 also powers the TPS, OLS, RMR, retarder temperature sensor, and sump oil temperature sensor and is present in all three ECU connectors.
3. Disconnect the selector “S” harness connector from the ECU and from the shift selector and check for opens, shorts, and shorts-to-ground between the shift selector and ECU (refer to Section 4). Repair as needed (refer to Appendix E).
4. If no problem is found with the shift selector connection or wiring, replace the shift selector.
5. If the condition persists, replace the ECU. If replacing the ECU corrects the problem, reinstall the original (bad) ECU to confirm that the problem is in the ECU. If the original ECU now works, in- spect the ECU connectors for any corrosion or damage which may cause an intermittent condition. If the original problem recurs, reinstall the replacement ECU.

[Randy Stephenson]

Paragraph 6.6. Unfortunately, it seems that it needs to be running to do these checks.

DIAGNOSTIC CODES
6–6.
DIAGNOSTIC CODE TROUBLESHOOTING A. Beginning The Troubleshooting Process
1. Begin troubleshooting by checking the transmission fluid level and ECU input voltage. Check di- agnostic codes by using:
• The shift selector display
• Allison DOCTM For PC–Service Tool
2. When a problem exists but a diagnostic code is not indicated, refer to Section 8, General Trouble- shooting of Performance Complaints for a listing of various electrical and hydraulic problems, their causes, and remedies.
3. If a diagnostic code is found in the ECU memory, record all available code information and clear the active indicator. Refer to Paragraph 6–2.
4. Test drive the vehicle to confirm a diagnostic code or performance complaint.
• If the code reappears, refer to Paragraph 6–5, Table 6–2. Table 6–2 lists diagnostic codes and their description.
• If the code does not reappear, it may be an intermittent problem. Use Allison DOCTM For PC– Service Tool or the code display procedure described in Paragraph 6–2.
• The code display procedure will indicate the number of times the diagnostic code has occurred. Refer to Section 8, General Troubleshooting of Performance Complaints, for the possible cause(s) of the problem.
• Use pressure gauges as necessary to evaluate hydraulic conditions.
• Appendix A deals with the identification of potential circuit problems. Refer to Appendix A if a
circuit problem is suspected.
5. If difficulties arise, you have unanswered questions, or if you are unable to quickly identify the root cause during troubleshooting, please contact the Technical Assistance Center (TAC):
Technical Assistance Center
PO Box 894, Mail Code 462-470-PF9 Indianapolis, IN 46206-0894
Phone: 1-800-252-5283
Information concerning specific items is contained in the appendices located in the back of this manual. The appendices are referred to throughout the manual.
B. Solenoid Locations
Solenoid locations in the control module are as illustrated in Figure 6–1. Refer to Figure 6–1 as necessary when using the diagnostic code schematics.
C. Diagnostic Code Schematics
The diagnostic code schematics in this section show wiring for both the optional oil level sensor and retarder, where applicable. If your transmission is not equipped with an oil level sensor or retarder, disregard the portions of the schematic pertaining to those optional pieces of equipment. Refer to the appropriate transmission service manual for solenoid replacement procedures.
NOTE:
 

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Randy,
Maybe I'm reading your previous posts wrong, but while you told us that fuses were good , you didn't (or I missed it) relate where you found 12v and where you didn't. The symptoms appear to indicate a loss of 12v somewhere  so verifying the presence of 12v is critical to solving the problem.  If you haven't yet you may want to refer to pgs 16 & 18 of the 04 Patriot wiring diagrams in Coach Assist.
That said, since the problem occurred after you had the chassis batteries out and then reinstalled, it could be caused by an arc (fuse blown) when you re-hooked up the batteries. However the fact that it ran for a short time and moved, it would seem to possibly be due to a loose/ faulty connection. The electrical connections to the trannny underneath the coach can be problematic due to the harsh environment. That said, I'd recommend concentrating on the presence/loss of 12v.
Steve

[Eric Maclean]

Randy
I assume at this point you have checked to see if you have power and grounds where you need them at the fuses and the TCM.
The double asterisk symbol identitys that the shift pads is not receiving information from the TCM this could be an issue with power to the TCM or a power supply issue within the TCM ( dead TCM ).

This may sound crazy but I have heard people having good luck diagnosis this by using a hair dryer to heat the TCM up for 5 to 10 minutes sometimes will
Get the TCM to communicate again allowing the TCM to operate and once you have a neutral indicator on the shift pad the engine should start.
If this works it indicates a problem internal to the TCM.
It worth a try.

Also to help with simple diagnostics this web site can help
First we'll need to know whether you have a W tech ll or W Tech lll system as they use a different wiring diagram and TCM.
The TCM should be located in the kick panel below the shift pad the WTech ll has rounded plugs where as the WTech lll has an longer narrower plug
This web site has step by step diagnostics for both

https://www.transmissioninstruments.com/ecu/

https://www.transmissioninstruments.com/wteciii/

Eric

[Randy Stephenson]

Thank you all for your responses and suggestions.  After weeks of checking wires, fuses, starter solenoid, and the TCM and ECM; I was able to get the coach started.  I spent days looking at wiring diagrams and connection pins on the TCM and ECM (thanks Eric and Steve for guidance for documents).  I determined that the gray connector had power, however, I could not get a power reading on the black connector?

This morning I spoke to Transmission Instruments regarding sending my keypad and ECM in for a checkup.  I explained my symptoms and pin connection checks that I completed, along with the cat eye display (like me, he was puzzled).  After a few more questions, he said 99% of the time it is a poor connection of the 10 gauge wires on the battery that causes the cateye symbol (my test lamp was not lighting, but the meter showed 12 volts, this was a clue to the issue).  Based on this direction it was recommended that I check the 10 gauge battery wires.

I re-reviewed my battery connection and did one more cleaning and wire brushing.  I discovered a white wire had lost its battery connector and had moved up into the wire wrapping.  Therefore, each time I looked at my photo documentation, and re-checking of connecting wires I did not realize there was a third wire in the loom. A forth wire connects to the other negative terminal.  After attaching a new connector and hooking the the three wires to the negative terminal I turned the key on and  shift pad showed the cateye and then Neutral!  Turn of the key to start and the CAT roared!!

Lesson learned, I normally sketch things and document a tear-down process, this time, I relied on photo documentation which missed the third white wire in the loom wrap.  As I looked at wiring diagrams they showed wires from the battery going to the ECM (so I thought my connections were correct), however, I never did identify the need for the four white wires going to the battery negative terminals. 

Thanks again!