Dinghy Brake System

[Joel Ashley]

He argues that Montana drivers have reciprocal privileges anywhere they go.

I would proffer that receprocity extends to the licensing and vehicle operation of the driver, not necessarily to the configuration of the vehicular composition he's piloting.  We had relatives in Idaho that years ago triple towed everywhere there, but wouldn't cross into Oregon that way.  When I ran the shipping dock at Fred Meyer's general merchandise warehouse, we had just bought a chain of stores in Utah and elsewhere.  We had to configure trailers for those new stores by setting up doubles in Clackamas (OR) that were taken to (I believe) Pocatello or vicinity, where they were tripled together for the rest of the haul.

Now I believe you can ship commercial triples in Oregon with proper but stipulative licensing, and you are restricted to Federal Interstates and only other highways to the extent you can access your terminals.  Noncommercial triple setups are strictly prohibited and in certain state portals vehemently enforced, retired cop or not.  As a general rule, except for Maryland, virtually all of the east coast and Hawaii, Washington, and Oregon do not allow private triples;  the rest of the West (and Alaska) and everywhere in between it's unrestricted.

Joel

[Gil_Johnson]

Bill, he's wrong as Joel pointed out.  Maximum number of trailers and maximum length and some other restrictions are set by the state and apply to anyone using their roads, regardless of where they are tagged.  However, he will no doubt leverage "professional courtesy" he he's ever stopped.  BTW, unless he did substantial work on the trailer's frame, he's driving an accident just waiting for the Jeep to break away.

Gil

I have an acquaintance from camp hosting in a state park that is a retired Arizona cop.  He and his wife live in a fifthwheel that's about 40 feet.  He tows it with a Volvo tractor that he says cost him less than a pickup.  Behind the fifthwheel he tows a Jeep Cherokee, that does not have aux brakes.  Between the truck cab and front of the fifthwheel he has a motorcycle.  Even though his home used to be Arizona, he licenses everything in a dummy corporation in Montana.   He tows double everywhere.  He argues that Montana drivers have reciprocal privileges anywhere they go.  He maintains he has never been pulled over but has knowledge, skills and paperwork to stop any cop from giving him a ticket.  He has a buddy that shows up once in awhile that does the same thing.  You don't dare asking either of them a question about it because they won't stop teaching you how smart they are until you agree 100%!

[Bill Sprague]

I know he's wrong.  But, he was compelled to be right.  And, it did break away last year.  The Jeep was totaled.  Nobody was hurt and I don't know which part failed.  

He also keeps a loaded pistol in a "waist pack" that looks like it came from LL Bean to keep your water bottle in.  If he unzips it, you can see that it is 100% a holster.  I chose to limit conversations with him.  

I will see him soon and maybe will learn more about "RV Doubles".

[Joel Ashley]

Here's Roadmaster's response to a note I sent regarding Forum members' lack of trust as to the amount of toad braking being applied.  Admittedly I was a tad disappointed because I'd hoped they might provide some sort of testing data, but they only reiterated product promotional information i've read repeatedly before.  That aside, my experience with their Brakemaster is all positive, and I have found no reason to disbelieve, knowing the product design, that the degree of pressure I apply on the coach brake pedal translates equally to the toad's.

-Joel,
 
"I do apologize, but I can't comment on any of the competitors supplemental braking systems out there, but I can tell you that the Brakemaster braking system, is a true proportionate braking system. What ever pressure is applied to the motor home brakes, the same pressure is applied to the towed vehicle brake pedal. When the Brake away is engaged the brakes on the towed will apply for up to 30 seconds, then disengage, giving the user enough time to pull over safely. Hope this helps, have a great day."

--
Benny Asanoma
Technical Support
Roadmaster, Inc.
800-669-9690 ext. 157

[Edward Buker]

Within a very short period the auto vacuum assist is depleted, probably during the first pedal application. I do wonder how much real toad braking there is with moderate pressure applied to the toad brake pedal with vacuum assist no longer available. May be worth at test with one of these 5000lb toads to shut down the engine  while traveling at moderate speed on a straight away and see how fast you stop with what would be expected to be a proportional amount of moderate brake pedal pressure. Maybe in reality the coach is handling 90% of the toad braking anyway unless maybe a vacuum pump is constantly running or cycling to allow the brake vacuum assist to work, Do your units have vacuum pumps? How do you actually calibrate the proportional assist?

Later Ed

[Bill Sprague]

Until this topic came up here, I had given up thinking about it several years ago when I did a lot of thinking, reading and talking on the subject.  

One of the things I read then was that automotive standards or practice require you to be able to steer and stop your car if the motor quits.  So, I thought I should try it.  It seemed logical because in Naval flight training the syllabus included knowing how to fly if the flight control boost system quit.  I pointed the Subaru down hill on a section of I-5 south of Tacoma and turned the switch off.  The steering got stiff and I had to push hard on the brake pedal to cause much deceleration.   Although I didn't try it, a panic stop seemed out of the question.  

While we were towing the Subaru we were also going to a lot of big rallies.  I talked to everyone selling brake systems.  When I asked about how hard their system pushes on a "dead pedal" the answers were either that it is user adjustable or it was designed to push the "right amount".   One suggestion was that there is a "standard" that 70 pounds of force on a "dead pedal" would create the same deceleration rate on all vehicles allowed to be sold in the USA, regardless of their weight or brake design.  I failed to find where that is written down.  

I came to the conclusion that there was a lot of design and salesmanship with little real engineering or science in these systems.  None seem to be reviewed or tested by any agency or association.  Unlike our cars or motorhomes there are no design standards.  There seems to be only creativity.

I also came to the conclusion that the only way you could ever "calibrate the proportional assist" would be to put a strain gauge in the motorhome receiver.  With that you could determine if, during braking, the car was pushing too much or pulling too much during braking.  Pushing would mean the toad brakes were not doing enough and pulling would mean the toad brakes are trying to stop the motorhome.   I have not seen such a strain gauge for sale anywhere.  

There are so many variables, that without such a gauge and measurement, there is no way to know if the "assist" is appropriate.   And, and how could you know if the setting would get the assist correct for "normal", "aggressive" and "panic" deceleration rates.  

As I posted earlier, I finally bought one when we bought a heavier car.  I picked it because I thought it was the most simple system available.  It has no settings and I have no idea if it pushes correctly on the pedal, if it is matched to Ford's version of a dead pedal or if it is matched to the weight of the car.

On edit, I would like to add that I have chosen to have one because I believe it is a better idea than to not have one.  The intention of my "rant" is to express my frustration that none of these things provide a way to indicate their effectiveness or reliability.  For example, I pulled the breakaway pin once and nothing happened.  The next time, it applied the car brakes, but I have no idea if the force applied would stop the car or only slow it down a little.

[Harvey Ziegler]

I have been reading this thread with interest and think about entering a comment.

I use a Roadmaster All Terrian tow bar and baseplates that I installed myself. I also use the Roadmaster Brakemaster braking system.

I would like to relay a inicident that I witnessed in the rear view mirror of the car I was driving at the time. About 20+ years ago I was traveling south on a farily major road in Calgary and just passed a gravel truck towing an empty 16' flat bed trailer and as passing noticed that his hitch was pulling off of the truck frame. about 2 miles further down the road I saw his trailer traveling accross the next lane no longer in the control of the truck. The trailer then jumped the curb and enter the median between the north and south bound lanes of traffic. As the traveled through the median the tongue of the trailer was throwing dirt in all directions like the snow would be thrown from a snow plow. It also hit a couple of street lamp standards as it traveled through the median shearing them off and tossing them through the air like match sticks.
The trailer then crossed both lanes of North bound traffic with out hitting anything and into the ditch which was quite flat. About 50or more  feet from the edge roadway was a chain link fence which is what stopped this trailers travels but not until it had pulled out about 200 feet of fence.

Don't know if the truck drive even knew he lost his trailer as it was sitting beside me at the next traffic light.

Just something else to think about.

[Gil_Johnson]

Here's a couple of examples of how break-away brakes saved the day.

I was towing an empty car trailer.  After crossing a railroad crossing the trailer came off the hitch.  The trailer's tongue was clearly visible through the back window of my Explorer.  I didn't immediately brake, but rather allowed the trailer's break-away system to apply trailer brakes.  The trailer's tongue hit the pavement and bounced while still attached to my Explorer by the safety chains.  The trailer came to safe and uneventful stop under my vehicle.  Without a break-away system I'm confident it would have went through the rear gate of the Explorer.

While driving across the Chesapeake Bay bridge, I was following a 1 ton truck pulling a small cement mixer.  As he came onto the center span of the bridge he began to throw up some rocks.  I moved to his left placing me in the far left lane.  No sooner did I change lanes the cement mixer separated from its tow.  It darted into my lane with its brakes applied.  It hit the bridge's side rail and bounched back onto the road and stopped in the lane to my right.  Had it's brakes not worked there's no telling what damage and injuries may have resulted on this highly travelled bridge.

As I've said before, I have a brake system on my TOAD more for the break-away system than anything else.  FWIW, the Air Force One brake system does not push on a dead pedal.  It has an air resevoir on the towed car to support braking and to supply vacum to the power brake booster.

Gil

[JimCasazze]

We are about to begin our 1st "real" trip in a few weeks and this is the 1st time we'll have a toad (always carried the Harley in the past).  I've been reading and considering the varying points of view on this thread attempting to reach some decision on what (if any) breaking system we will use.

Dick s: Thanks for your anaylis of the components and their likely failure possibilities.  That helped me put things in perspective.

Joel W: I tend to agree with the KISS priniciple and like the surge brakes with simple cable mechanism.   This would be themost likely way I'd go, except for the lack of breakaway prevention.  As I tend to agree with Dick, that the odds of that happening on a reguarly inspected tow setup are within (my) acceptable limits - I may still go this route.

It is interesting to me to find that the few states (like Florida) where we happen to reside require breaks on towed vehicles when states that have real mountains like CO, MT, etc do not.  Add to this the insanity of the triple tows you see here in FL on a daily basis, including cars being towed by ropes on the interstate and you have to wonder if there is any intelligence in this state.

We have yet to hook up the Grand Cherokee, but when it is delivered I will take it out for some test tows to deterime the effect on my PT's acceleration and braking.  

I'm not sure what some of you refer to as a "Panic stop" as most times a car cuts in front of me and then slams on their breaks pretty much qualifies as panic to me.   I try to mainain a minimum of 3 car lenghts (approx 60') per 10 mph of my coach velocity.   Anyone that disturbs my buffer zone make me get uneasy as this 32,000 lb sled does not stop worth a damn compared to a passenger vehicle.

The GC weighs 5400 lbs so it does represent about 17% additional mass to stop.  Will this be a linear breaking addative, meaning I will need 17% more distance to stop?  I'm not sure what the stopping rate is.  Perhaps I should go out to one of the old abandoned lots and test this.  Hmm,  I may do just that.    

Another point that concerns me about the various systems out there was well put in an earlier post that talked about the lack of precise, engineering type information on exactly how much pressure (stopping power) these various systems acutally provide.  I've read about every web page I could find on the subject and not one manufacturer provides any specific data in this area.  While they all discuss the merits of their special, proprietary technology - none tell you they will provide ? pounds of force, or % stopping power, etc.

In the end, I guess each system works to some extent and each has it's inherant weaknesses.  Reading the ongoing discussions and real life experiances - That's what makes this forum so valuable.  At this point, I think we may tow here in flatland for a bit and then decide a few hundred miles down the road if we need to address suplemental breaking.

J

[Dick Simonis]

I've made the decision to replace my Even Brake system with a Ready Brake which is now on order.  The simplicity off the ready brake and what appears to be an easy install appeals to my engineering side.  It appears to be on of those things what will just work....no frill just works.  Surge brakes have been around for decades and are truly proportional and better yet, automatically takes into account the weight of the toad. Plus a failure where the toad brakes are applied inadvertently is most unlikely.

As for the brake-a-way option, I'm looking at that but don't like the way it functions very much and am not convinced in the necessity.  Once the Ready Brake gets here and is installed, I'll rethink this but a failure of the towing assy plus breaking both safety cables is tough to visualize.

[JimCasazze]

Joel/Dick,
Have you considered the load on the firewall?  Is there a backing plate to distribute the force so the fitting won't pull through?
J