Author Topic: Types of brakes for towing  (Read 28688 times)

Bill Sprague

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2012, 07:32:02 PM »
The Brakemaster by Roadmaster has no adjustments or settings.  Jerry, Joel, (others) and I get what we get.

Joel Ashley

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2012, 03:19:23 AM »
Yup, Bill, that's true.  And not long ago, when a similar question was broached on the Forum, I sent an email to RoadMaster about it.  They declined to offer an explanation as to how they know the toad actually brakes proportionately.  One would presume they had tested it, but for whatever reason, perhaps some liability position, details weren't available.

I'm not sure one needs to actually drive anywhere to get the jist of things;  a pair of walkie talkies between someone pressing variably on the coach brake and someone watching the pedal in the toad would resolve a lot.  And you wouldn't have to be hitched up, just plug in the air line.  I'd try it myself now if it wasn't a half-day project just to get my coach out from our side-yard pad, and to a point on the street where the car could get behind it.  For a more precise evaluation though, Ed's concept would be better.

Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
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Phil N Barb Rodriguez

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2012, 03:21:33 AM »
If your Brakemaster is like mine, there is one adjustment on the connector to the brake pedal. Mine iikes the number 2 position, where the pin fastens the collar.

Joel Ashley

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2012, 03:27:53 AM »
That just adjusts the clamp to the pedal size, not the pressure on the brake.  That would require some method of adjusting pressure application in the cylinder and there is none.  It directly depends only on the degree of pressure generated at the coach brake pedal.
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Jerry Carr

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2012, 01:46:35 PM »

Joel I like your idea of just hooking up the brake line and watching the action with a hand held radio I think I will give it a try this week before we head south, I'll let you know what I see, but I may still need a scottie to really analyze the results Bill!
Regards,
Jerry Carr
Past Region 1 V.P.
Entegra Anthem
06 Pat. Thunder Cat C13

Bill Sprague

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2012, 04:13:44 PM »
Quote from: Jerry Carr
Joel I like your idea of just hooking up the brake line and watching the action with a hand held radio I think I will give it a try this week before we head south, I'll let you know what I see, but I may still need a scottie to really analyze the results Bill!
'v
I've done that.  When it was new, I had someone (probably BJ) pump the MH pedal so I could watch the toad pedal move.  It did.

My point is that, no matter what system you have, there is a lot of guessing going on.  First, there is no way to determine how hard the pedal should be pressed when the power brakes are off.   Then, even if there are settings (like on a Brake Buddy) you have to estimate what you want.  

A few years back I was in a Roadmaster booth at a rally somewhere.  I had not spent money on a brake system yet.  I was looking at the Brakemaster because it seemed simple.  Someone with a Roadmaster shirt on was standing there.  Since there are no settings and it operates on air pressure, a primary design issue is the diameter of the cylinder.    So I asked if there were different sizes and how to pick.  Turns out the guy wearing the shirt introduced himself as the company "engineer".   He explained there was one size and he was the one that determined that size. I asked how that was determined.  Expecting engineering math to be involved, he answered.  He said that he used a company van with dark windows so that he could ride in the van behind a motorhome (which I think is illegal).  He said he tried different sizes until it felt about right.  That was engineering I understood, so I bought one.

When a 30,000 to 45,000 pound motorhome is pulling a 3500 to 4500 pound car of various makes and models with the engine off, nobody knows how hard the brake pedal needs to be pressed in the toad for any stopping event.  

There is  only one exception.  It commonly shows up in two applications.


David T. Richelderfer

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2012, 05:11:31 PM »
In fact, if you had someone riding in the toad for the specific reason to apply the toad brakes when the MH brake lights come on, even then the person in the toad would not know how much brake pressure to apply.  So it's all a mute point.  All we can hope for is the toad brakes assist in the braking of the MH and toad unit's overall weight.  I have an Even-Brake.  It has a method to apply less-to-average-to-more brakes on a sliding scale.  But there is no way to know where to set the sliding scale.  I would guess the heavier the toad, the more braking assistance I would want from the toad... given it is applying more inertia to the MH and toad unit's overall weight.  But... doesn't every vehicle come equipped with brakes engineered for its weight?
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Bill Sprague

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2012, 06:28:19 PM »
Quote from: David T. Richelderfer
....... But... doesn't every vehicle come equipped with brakes engineered for its weight?....All we can hope for is the toad brakes assist in the braking of the MH and toad unit's overall weight.
Probably.  I assume they all come with power brakes that can be applied with a light touch from a small foot that may even be wearing high heels -- even if its a Suburban.  But, what if the power brakes are shut off?  Is there a standard somewhere that says all vehicles with failed power brakes will stop from 65 mph in 1/4 mile with 10 pounds of brake pedal pressure?  

As you say, "All we can hope for is the toad brakes assist in the braking of the MH and toad unit's overall weight."  

I towed a 3,000 pound Subaru for about 60k miles with no brake system.  We upgraded to a 4,200 pound Ford and put in a brake system.  As we all do, I drive to avoid panic stops.  So far, I've not noticed any difference having a brake system in use for normal stopping -- other than an LED blinking at me from the toad.

My personal feeling is that I have not received any braking benefit from my $1,000 Brakemaster.  I may have some emotional benefit in the hope it might help in a panic stop.

I do have the added risk of the emergency breakaway system malfunctioning, getting the toad brakes too hot and burning up our Ford!

LEAH DRAPER

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2012, 06:39:17 PM »
We should NOT overlook another aspect of having "toad brakes"....the state legal laws and related insurance issues.


Bill Sprague

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2012, 07:59:55 PM »
Quote from: LEAH DRAPER
We should NOT overlook another aspect of having "toad brakes"....the state legal laws and related insurance issues.

You are right Leah.  But, that is an even bigger can of worms because the states and provinces are not uniform on the difference between "towed vehicles" and "trailers".  Nor are they uniform on reciprocity.  On top of that, there are no federal, state or even manufacturer association standards on what toad brakes are supposed to do.  

If you look at this chart (http://www.towingworld.com/articles/TowingLaws.htm), 38 states have "No Laws Regarding" brake laws on towed cars.   Canada is about the same.  My favorite is Quebec that says "Not recommended, but legal."  What does that mean?

The good news is that in years of reading motorhome forums, I have not read a single first hand experience where tickets were issued or lawsuits filed over toad brakes.  Yes, there are a bunch of theories and stories, but so far no first hand instances I can find.

David T. Richelderfer

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2012, 05:35:20 PM »
I am planning to tow my 2003 Chevy Avalanche this coming Spring.  I have an 8,000 pound capacity tow hitch and an Even Brake.  I have not had the tow hitch attachment brackets installed on the Avalanche yet, and I have not installed the Even Brake.  I hope somebody in my proximity can do these installations for me and show me how to properly set them all up and make them all work together everytime I set off from an RV park.

This power brake issue concerns me.  My Avalanche has power brakes.  Just for an exercise last week I coasted down my inclined driveway - engine off, transmission in neutral, steering wheel not locked in place.  I have to tell you that without those Avalanche power brakes functioning I had to push VERY firmly on the brake pedal to apply ANY slowing to my vehicle's speed.  I had to push the brake pedal down to what felt like an end-stop near the floorboard to come to a stop from a slow speed on my inclined driveway.
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Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: Types of brakes for towing
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2012, 07:28:01 PM »
The Toad Stop system has a manual "trigger" that allows one to activate the system w/o being hooked to the RV. You can then adjust the brake pressure, etc. Once hooked up to the RV, the system will use these settings proportionally when the RV brakes (including Pac Brake) are applied and the toad is pushing against the RV.
Steve
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