Author Topic: Motorhome Winter use  (Read 24257 times)

Justin Youngren

  • Guest
Motorhome Winter use
« on: September 12, 2014, 07:09:21 PM »
This will be our first winter using the aquahot system. We are going to be needing out coach during below freezing temps and was wondering if all will be ok as long as the heater is running.  We have both electric and diesel switch and are not sure which does what as far as heating the coach.  We have only used the heat once and it seems like it only worked as long as both switches were on, is that right?  Also when we do get ready to winterize it how is the best way to get the antifreeze poured in?  Sorry if my questions are dumb I just don't want to freeze anything up. Will the basement where the holding tanks are be heated as well?

 Thanks Pam  P.S.  We have the 2006 Monterey
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 09:03:08 PM by 5 »

Gerald Farris

  • Guest
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2014, 09:17:51 PM »
Pam,
Your coach will be fine if the heat is running because all of the coach is heated including the basement. The electric switch heats the coach on shore power if you are plugged in to power. The diesel switch heats the coach with the diesel boiler using battery power for the fans and pumps. So you need to keep the batteries charged if you are dry camped. This is of course dependent on the system properly operating and the thermostats set to heat the coach.

There is a limitation when running the system on electric only because the electric element only produces about 1/4 as much heat as the diesel boiler. Most owners find that if it gets much below 45 degrees, the diesel boiler is needed to properly heat the coach to a comfortable level.

You can not pour RV antifreeze in to your lines. It needs to be pumped in until you have pink running at all outlets, both hot and cold. Also be sure the icemaker and washing machine are properly winterized.

Gerald

Joel Ashley

  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2348
  • Thanked: 805 times
  • OSU Class of '73, Oregon Native. RVing 39 years
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2014, 09:43:06 PM »
Others here may likely expound further, Pam, but as long as your HydroHot is on your bay heater outlet will kick on anytime the thermostat down there senses about 40 some degrees.  Your diesel HydroHot switch will provide the most energy to the system.  The electric switch can save some diesel fuel, especially if you are hooked up to park power, but it is less effective than the diesel burner, and is mostly for helping to maintain a heat level that the diesel has already attained for the system.  If hooked to park power it is best to leave both switches on, but with very low demand you can get by with just the electric side alone.  Also, while on the highway the engine exchanges heat with the HydoHot automatically so the HydroHot's burner doesn't have to use fuel then, and upon arrival at a camping spot your system is already hot by way of the engine.  And before you leave a campsite, if you turn on the Engine Preheat switch next to the Diesel and Electric switches, about 15 to 30 minutes before leaving, the HydroHot will pump fluid to warm the engine for a more efficient startup - especially useful in winter or on cold mountain mornings; remember to turn that switch off just before pulling out.

If you want a lot of hot water, such as taking a shower, you will want to be sure the diesel burner switch is on, because the electric side alone won't keep up with enough hot water.  Also be aware that hot water has the priority over space heat.  So if you hear your floor vent heat exchanger fans running and then turn on and run a lot of hot water somewhere, you'll likely notice the vent fans shut off to make sure there's plenty of hot water.  Water circulates through the HydroHot to be heated before going to your Hot spigots.  The engine's hot coolant similarly delivers heat via an exchanger in the HydroHot, and when the engine is cold a pump in the HydroHot returns the favor.  Additionally, a special antifreeze circulates via pumps through blue and red tubing you may have seen here and there in bays and under cabinets.  The red tubes carry hot fluid to your floor heat vents where small fans extract heat and blow it into the room.  The blue tubes return the cooler fluid back to the HydroHot for heating again.  So your HydroHot is your furnace and hot water heater all in one.

In cold weather your electric side may not be able to keep up with heating the coach by itself, and/or if you are using much hot water.  So that could be why the one time you used the furnace you needed both diesel and electric switches on.  

If your '06 is like mine, there should be a winterizing kit already installed in with the water pump, which is behind a small removable carpeted panel on the left wall of the main curbside storage bay.  If you have trouble locating it, I will be glad to supply a photo to help.  You need of course to drain everything first by way of the valves in your waterbay and its manifold.  Shutoff valves on the lines in with the water pump can be opened to let water drain out also, including the one next to the filter for the fridge icemaker.  The hose from the kit goes into jugs of pink RV winterizing antifreeze, the valve from the water tank is shut off, and by turning on faucets, shower valves, water bay shower, icemaker valve, and toilet valve, the water pump moves the antifreeze through your tubes.  As the "pink stuff" shows up at each outlet, turn it off and move on to the next.  Be sure you do both cold and HOT!  It is almost imperative that you pump RV antifreeze through the HydroHot to protect its coils - many winterize by blowing air through their water lines, but that may not be enough to secure the HydroHot's coils, so use antifreeze at the very least until you see it exit at least one hot water faucet.

Two areas that are special (beyond protecting the HydroHot from freezing) are the fridge icemaker and any washer/dryer.  You should learn how to manually cycle the icemaker to insure protective fluid gets through it.  But the coach should already have from the factory a foil heat tape around the icemaker's valve above the solenoid in the back of the fridge;  as long as your 12 v. batteries aren't depleted, the heat tape should keep any undrained water in the valve from freezing and breaking it.  The tape comes on at 38 degrees and goes off at 48.  As for our washer, we simply follow Splendide's directions in their manual and add a cup or so of antifreeze in the drum and spin cycle once.

Alternatively, if we think we might use the coach during the winter sometime, rather than have to dewinterize and rewinterize during storage, I've just gone out during cold snaps here in the Willamette Valley and turned on the HydroHot on electric and set the front thermostat at 40 degrees.  I might add a small space heater on low, but rarely.  As long as the HydroHot is on, electric or diesel or both, the bay thermostat and vent protects waste tanks and lines down there;  the HydroHot protects itself and adjacent water tank by virtue of just being on.  My tanks aren't really at risk anyway since they are usually empty, but any residual water elsewhere won't freeze.  All that said, there is always a chance of a power outage, either at your park power source or on the coach, so the electric side of the HydroHot wouldn't run.  Even if the diesel were on, without a 120 volt battery charger the batteries would eventually run down to where the burner might fail.  So if you don't winterize the rig, and rely on onboard heating during storage, you should keep it where you can regularly check on things, daily if possible during subzero weather.

Joel

I see Gerald beat me to it, and with a much more succinct reply to your questions.  He is much more efficient with words than this old windbag  :P
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 10:17:59 PM by 77 »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

David T. Richelderfer

  • David, Leslie, Jasper, & JoJo
  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1682
  • Thanked: 498 times
  • OSU, Class of 1971, RVing nearly 50 years
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2014, 10:02:00 PM »
1. The electric element requires either shore power or generator power to operate; it does not operate at all from the house batteries.
2. The diesel burner will operate from the house batteries.
3. Whether using the electric element or diesel burner, or both together, the pumps that move heated solution throughout the coach to the four heating zones and to preheat the engine will operate from the house batteries.
4. The furnace heating registers located in the four heating zones have fans that will operate from the house batteries.

Bottom line is
5. Either shore power or the generator will be needed even if using the diesel burner, and not the electric element, because the diesel burner in combination with the pumps (moving heated solution) and the furnace fans (blowing heated air) will pull hard on the house batteries... requiring the house batteries to be recharged at regular intervals throughout the day during cold outdoor temperatures.
2004 Beaver Marquis Sapphire

I had a dream... then I lived it!

Jeff Watt

  • Guest
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2014, 10:14:22 PM »
Pam,

Gerald and Joel are certainly correct however I want to add a more northern perspective....

In my opinion, my coach and I suspect most are woefully inadequately insulated. What this means is while, yes, the hydro hot/aqua hot does provide heat to the basement blower, there isn't a lot of insulation to keep that heat in the tank bay. On my coach, the bay heater is on the curb side, while the pump and all other plumbing lines/ manifold are on the driver side. There is also NO insulation below the tank bay, none on any exterior side save for the poor light duty foam insulation in the doors.

What does this mean....it means that in climates that Beaver/Monaco designers felt most owners would operate in, the system is adequate and I suspect it is as I have had no problem at temperatures just below freezing - probably due to the fact the aqua hot is running which is in the bay beside the water bay.

However, and this is the fun part, when cold weather is encountered (say -18C/ 0F) then there can be problems. As I said on mine the heater is (for all intents) a fair ways from the pump. Last year when venturing south in January and leaving in -22C, my water pump started to ice up (others may remember me posting about no water). I attributed it to the heater just not being able to heat the bay adequately, especially with little to no insulation. Also there are some small holes in the floor for drain tubes etc, which when driving down the road act as vacuum to suck any heat out of the bay.

I have started to add more insulation - replaced/added better styrofoam in the bay doors; spray foamed any visible areas, but it is really hard to get the areas that need it. IF it would have been done when manufactured, easy, now not so much.

Also, depending upon your coach, my coach's basement heater is only for one bay; the other two bays are on there own.

As I prefaced it with the statement that most owners never intend or will use their coach in cold temperatures, I suppose some latitude can be given to the Monaco designers, but in reality when coaches are list priced at 3,4,5, 600+K, you'd think a little insulation wouldn't be a big deal. I also looked at my brochure and see that there is no insulation mentioned in the floor - no wonder the tile feels cold on cool mornings (I don't have the infloor heat).

One last thing, while the engine is running, it does provide heat as if the aquahot  is on But insufficient in cold weather. I have started turning on my diesel aqua hot even while driving when encountering cold weather. With all the blowers running, the engine side isn't able to keep up.

Fortunately I usually only have to encounter 1 or 2 days like that a year.

A little Canadian perspective.

Jeff

Bill Sprague

  • Guest
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2014, 12:54:25 AM »
I write this story about once a year when "cold weather use" comes up.

BJ and I accidentally tested our Monterey at -15F and 50 mph winds on a "spring" trip through South Dakota.  Because of the winds, we kept the slides in.  I-90 was closed.  We could not go anywhere, so spent three days in a small campground.  It was snowing so hard, we could see little.  We did see an awning blow off, picnic tables roll by and other campers try to drive to find propane.

We do try to avoid blizzards but don't mind camping in cold weather.  With due respect to Jeff, our motorhome seems insulated well enough.  With a little searching there are plenty of Monaco product owners that enjoy winter use for activities like skiing and snowmobiling.   I'm sure extra insulation would help, but we've not needed it.

Our HydroHot produced enough heat to keep everything, including us, warm and comfortable during the blizzard.

However, during our blizzard stay, the HydroHot started making odd noises that turned out to be a pending bearing failure in the Webasto diesel burner.  The noises lead to me worrying about failure of the HydroHot.  If the HydroHot and it's bearing had quit during our unplanned blizzard, we had no backup plan.  Not only would we have frozen, but various motorhome systems would have been damaged as well.

The electrical energy from 50 amp service or a 7500 watt Onan can produce enough heat to replace the output of a failed Hydro/AquaHot.  I now keep a collection of Wal-Mart two speed space heaters in a back corner of the "basement" and have figured out how to plug them all in without overloading circuits.  However, all but the washer/dryer outlet is on the inverter circuit so only about a third of the available electricity is usable without making some changes.  In our case I've added outlets to circuits that are not on the inverter circuit.  The two key  circuits are the ones used for the air-conditioners.  

Jeff Watt

  • Guest
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2014, 03:33:48 PM »


I agree with Bill about keeping slides in or at least in while you don't need them. You never know what might happen overnight - snow, freezing rain - which is more than a just a nuisance to get off the slide topper awnings.

My 05 was better insulated than this one (at least around the bays) and its bay heater seemed to heat a bigger bay without issue. I don't mean to suggest they won't stay ok, it just bothers me after seeing how other manufactures insulate the bay and floors of their coaches. A piece of plastic and/or fibreboard doesn't equate to insulation in my books - sorry for the rant.

Jeff

Bill Sprague

  • Guest
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2014, 04:02:42 PM »
Quote from: Jeff Watt

I agree with Bill about keeping slides in or at least in while you don't need them. You never know what might happen overnight - snow, freezing rain - which is more than a just a nuisance to get off the slide topper awnings.

My 05 was better insulated than this one (at least around the bays) and its bay heater seemed to heat a bigger bay without issue. I don't mean to suggest they won't stay ok, it just bothers me after seeing how other manufactures insulate the bay and floors of their coaches. A piece of plastic and/or fibreboard doesn't equate to insulation in my books - sorry for the rant.

Jeff

I've not kept track of various model Beavers, but I was told that models made in Bend around 2000, plus and minus a few years, had a lot more insulation.  In ours, I used a hole saw to cut access for an small shop air compressor hose and was impressed with the "core" I removed.  

My winter use rant is about the silly slide toppers that collect water in a big puddle when it rains.  And, where we spend a lot of time, it does rain.  When the temperature drops those puddles become big chunks of ice.  When that happens you can't bring the slides in for travel.  Even if it warms up, the ice takes a long time to melt without help.  You can buy or make a replacement to the outdoor shower head that will connect your water hose.  Since the HydroHot makes continuous hot water, you can melt the ice if you don't mind climbing an icy ladder or standing on the icy roof spraying hot water!  (The "adapter" is 1/2 inch male pipe thread with 3/4 inch male garden hose.  The shower head unscrews and you replace it with the adapter.)  


David T. Richelderfer

  • David, Leslie, Jasper, & JoJo
  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1682
  • Thanked: 498 times
  • OSU, Class of 1971, RVing nearly 50 years
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2014, 04:27:57 PM »
I was thinking the inverter passed through power from 12v and 110v sources to 12v and 110v fixtures, respectively.  The inverter limitation is only found when it's inverting, that is, when it is producing 110v from 12v.  Otherwise, whatever 110v amperage is available from either shore or generator sources is fully usable in the coach at 110v fixtures and receptacles found throughout the coach.  And likewise, whatever 12v amperage is available from the batteries or alternator is usable to run 12v fixtures found throughout the coach.  Again, I was thinking the inverter limitation, in my case 2500 watts, only applies to 12v battery power going into the inverter and coming out as 110v (which goes to most 110v fixtures, but not all, such as the roof airs, for example).

Please correct me if I am wrong on this.  I guess my point is with adequate shore power or while the generator is running at least one space heater could be plugged into each 110v circuit found throughout the coach.  In my case that would amount to four or five space heaters - two or three in the living room, one or two in the bedroom, one or two in the basement, etc.
2004 Beaver Marquis Sapphire

I had a dream... then I lived it!

Edward Buker

  • Guest
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2014, 04:52:41 PM »
David,

These coaches try and make the 120v available in many locations so most of the outlets are tied to the inverter. You can test that by plugging in the coach to 120V at the pole and killing the main inverter breaker on the 120V panel in the bedroom and having the inverter off see what outlets are live. There is a single usually 30 amp 120V feed going to the inverter. You can check that by the inverter circuit breaker size in your 120V panel. The main issue is that the inverters tend to be made with a rather undersized somewhat cheaply made set of relays to handle the transfer end of the business. I would probably put no more than one or two 750W heaters on the outlets fed from the inverter enabled outlets. As the contactors get older and surface resistance caused by oxidation, arc pitting from making and breaking contacts under load, as well as inductive load arcing degrade the contacts.  The current handling capability diminishes, resistance goes up and they tend to overheat with heavy loads. Constant resistive heater load near capacity would be pretty tough to handle with small contactors as they age. Some inverters also have the little push button breakers built in that should never be used with resistive heater loads.
Some of the newer heavy duty better built inverters may handle this job better but cost constraints do limit the components and one would bet that the relays do not have gold contacts in todays market place.

If you go through the inverter off/breaker off test you may be able to find outlets that do not go through the inverter which would be my first choice outlets for a heater. Bill's approach adding outlets that do not go through the inverter is a good sound approach to the back up electric heating issue. The main transfer switch may be a good source to wire in and add another breaker box for the extra outlets.

Later Ed

Stan Simpson

  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 786
  • Thanked: 202 times
  • One mile South of the Cheddar Curtain
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2014, 05:02:00 PM »
Quote from: Bill Sprague
The electrical energy from 50 amp service or a 7500 watt Onan can produce enough heat to replace the output of a failed Hydro/AquaHot.

Bill,

I'm confused. Did you mean to say the electric element CANNOT produce enough heat to replace.....

Stan

Stan Simpson & Becky Glover & Moe the cat
2005 Monterey Laguna IV
C9 400 Cat
Honda CRV toad

Larry Williams

  • Guest
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2014, 05:11:37 PM »
Quote from: Stan Simpson

Bill,

I'm confused. Did you mean to say the electric element CANNOT produce enough heat to replace.....

Stan


He said the electrical system was enough to support SPACE HEATERS to replace the hydro-hot output, not that the electric element would replace the hydro-hot output.

David T. Richelderfer

  • David, Leslie, Jasper, & JoJo
  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1682
  • Thanked: 498 times
  • OSU, Class of 1971, RVing nearly 50 years
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2014, 05:15:57 PM »
I guess I took at face value the statement that "the inverter passes through 110v power" from two sources, shore and generator.  You are saying the power passed through is limited by a single feed and its breaker?  That would mean only one leg of the two-leg 110v power supply goes to the inverter, and only a minority proportion, say 30% or less, of the shore or generator power is allowed to even get to and pass through the inverter.  This interpretation being (mostly) true means Bill is correct in that to use multiple space heaters means they are best plugged directly into one of the two legs coming from either shore or generator sources, such as the roof circuits as Bill pointed out.
2004 Beaver Marquis Sapphire

I had a dream... then I lived it!

Stan Simpson

  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 786
  • Thanked: 202 times
  • One mile South of the Cheddar Curtain
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2014, 05:20:41 PM »
Quote from: Larry Williams

He said the electrical system was enough to support SPACE HEATERS to replace the hydro-hot output, not that the electric element would replace the hydro-hot output.

Got it. I misunderstood.

Thanks,

Stan

Stan Simpson & Becky Glover & Moe the cat
2005 Monterey Laguna IV
C9 400 Cat
Honda CRV toad

David T. Richelderfer

  • David, Leslie, Jasper, & JoJo
  • BAC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1682
  • Thanked: 498 times
  • OSU, Class of 1971, RVing nearly 50 years
Re: Motorhome Winter use
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2014, 05:24:53 PM »
It's not that the coach's "electrical system" can support multiple space heaters, because as a coach system it will not apparently at all receptacles.  What Bill meant is the electrical sources consisting of 50 amp shore or generator power will usually support multiple space heaters.  What I am learning is that the "system," downstream from the shore and generator power sources, is bottle-necked before it passes through the inverter.  The trick, as Bill pointed out, is to find and access circuits to power the space heaters that do not go through this bottle-neck.
2004 Beaver Marquis Sapphire

I had a dream... then I lived it!