Dry Camping at 18 degrees F

[Bill Sprague]

Does it work to dry camp in sub freezing weather?  Yes, quite well.

We were invited to spend the post Thanksgiving weekend with long time friends (and BAC members) in their driveway.   Three couples have been friends for decades, raised children (now grandchidren) together and now have DP motorhomes.  The idea was to eat leftovers, catch up and (maybe!) drink some wine.   The host couple lives due east of Seattle near where you run out of roads going east.

The "Camp Stefani" driveway is a favorite camp site for us.  It is a beautiful location "in the woods".  We dry camp there about once a year.  This time was a little different because the forecast was for 20 degrees and it is dry camping with no hookups.  It is Onan and HydroHot not Water, Sewer and 50 amp with Wi-Fi.

BJ and I have a few memorable BELOW 0 days where we were stuck as I-90 closed in South Dakota for a surprise blizzard.  But we had 50 amps the whole time.

Since it is not common to dry camp well below freezing, I thought it might be interesting for some.  What works, what does not work.

The Onan performed flawlessly.  Note that the Onan produces fewer AMPs than a 50 AMP power pole, but it is enough.  It started easily, even at the low of 18 F.  It puts 30 AMPs into each primary circuit or "leg", one of which has the battery charger and all of the 120 outlets.  If the battery charger is in it's initial charge phase it can draw enough that hair dryers and space heaters should be avoided.  Since my 6 year old batteries were very cold, I ran the Onan in the morning and evening hours. 

The HydroHot worked well.  We kept the electric switch off and the diesel switch on.  Both thermostats were set to 68 during the day and 60 at night.  The burner did not need to run continuously and cycled normally.  One question was if the 6 year old house batteries would carry the HydroHot through the (cold) night.  It did.  The Xantrex battery gauge showed 75% when I got up in the morning.  Apparently I don't need new batteries yet.

Fuel use was about 15 gallons to keep the Onan and HdroHot running.  That's based on what it took to fill the tank and subtracting the engine usage on the Aladdin.

The Norcold refrigerator was set to run on propane to help keep the load off of the 30 amp Leg 2.  The charger, coffee pot and hair dryer are enough for that circuit.

The Norcold surprised me with a "code" the second evening.  It was making a clicking sound and flashing "LO DC".  It went away as soon as I started the Onan.  I don't know, but suspect that it had something to do with the heating element for the icemaker valve needing some current coupled with very cold and old batteries.  The Norcold manual says that when you get a "LO DC" you have "Low DC current".  Oddly, the HydroHot never showed a low DC indication, but the Norcold did.

There was no problem with the outside shower or dump valves.  I suspect that the heat exchanger in the tank bay was doing it's job.  The one time I checked, the Aladdin it read that the basement temp was 45.   

Condensation was a small issue.  We apparently have an area in the front cap behind the clearance lights that is not insulated and will build up some ice from condensation.  As we left on Sunday and it warmed up, BJ had to spead a towel on the dash to catch some melting water.

The only thing that was a true PITA was the GD Carefree slide toppers.  Friday night it snowed an inch.  The forecast did not give it a chance to melt, so I carefully climbed up on the snowy roof and swept the snow off the canvas toppers.  When we wanted to leave on Sunday the toppers would not wind up as we retracted the slides.  Apparently there was enough frozen moisture in the spring windup that it could not roll up.  For one, I hooked up the hose to the hot outside shower, climbed a ladder and sprayed hot water until it thawed.  For the second, I released the catches, climbed a ladder and yanked on it until it broke free.  The third was in direct sunshine and melted on its own as I fought with the toppers.

If I still skied a lot, I would remove the canvas toppers.  I would also leave the slides in while when it snows.  One BAC couple in Bend, OR does a lot of family skiing with their Beaver, but it is one without slides.  They are smart people. 

What do you do if the HydroHot quits?  I've added a couple of outlets and have enough small space heaters to take better advantage of all the available Onan output.  I can put a heater in the basement and a couple in the living area and stay warm.  If it was a total HydroHot failure, I would pump some pink antifreeze into it to prevent the EXPENSIVE repair from freeze damage.  (The HydroHot is exposed to outside air due to the open hole for the burner intake.)

If the Onan didn't work and the HydroHot burner or element failed, I would stay warm like the truckers.  Since it is plumbed into the HydroHot circulation system, idling the Cummins will produce heat and enough electricity for the lights. 

All in all, except for the GD Carefree awning design, we had nothing but fun and would do it again anytime.  If you Beaver is new to you or you've never dry camped in the cold, it works quite well. 

[Keith Moffett]

I have often wondered how to deal with snow and black ice when driving and especialy towing.  Not anctious to experiment.  We cant yet use the Gerald method and so the coach sits all winter.

[LaMonte Monnell]

Thanks for the cold weather dry camping info! The wife doesn't like cold weather at all, but never know if we will get stuck too far North one year once our full time adventures begin.

[Bill Sprague]

I have often wondered how to deal with snow and black ice when driving and especialy towing.  Not anctious to experiment.  We cant yet use the Gerald method and so the coach sits all winter.

Keith,
The way we deal with it is to avoid it.  The weather, highway reporting and road cameras have become so sophisticated that you can drive knowing what to expect.  If expectations are less than you like, then wait.  Rarely is any road or pass an impenetrable mess for more than a few days. 

And, I agree about towing.  Toad brake engineering is a puzzle palace.  If icy, there is no way to predict what the towed brake system might do. 

[Bill Sprague]

Thanks for the cold weather dry camping info! The wife doesn't like cold weather at all, but never know if we will get stuck too far North one year once our full time adventures begin.

When we were in our twenties and newlyweds, I promised BJ she would never have to be cold and wet on camping trips. At first it was an investment in down mummy bags and tents with rain flies.  Now its a motorhome and a HydroHot.

She will tell you that I've kept my promise.  In all of our adventures, she has always had a warm and cozy bed at night.

[Joel Ashley]

When we first got our coach in Oct. 2006, I had only driven from Bend to Elko and up to Park City when on our 3rd day on the road we got stuck on a blocked freeway for 4-5 hours.  I'd driven our old Pace Arrow in a little snow before, but the big diesel was entirely new to me, and I'd not even had a test drive before we bought it. 

While on the freeway parking lot, a blizzard we'd been outrunning caught up with us.  It was quite an experience and a long story, but my take-away was that these rigs are awesome in snow.  We were forced by nightfall and conditions to get off the highway in Rawins, WY, where there was supposed to be an RV park.  The blinding weather made finding it a bugger... I couldn't make out street signs and by then snow was a couple feet deep and drifting deeper. 

We went into downtown vacant streets and circled back to a gas station for directions.  The coach was amazing.  Gentle brake and light throttle kept us going, even up a decent grade toward the RV park, which I subsequently couldn't see in the blowing snow and passed.  Attempting to turn around I got us into a trailer park dead end, drifting up badly with snow.  For only the second time, I had to unhitch the toad, the mechanism for which was iced over, and stubborn as heck.  My hands were screaming frozen in pain by the time I got it free.  Lee got out and tried to help direct me back the rig around without hitting adjacent vehicles or trailers in the narrow drive, but it was a bugger cause I could hardly see her, much less hear her, and I narrowly missed a pickup back there.

By the time we finished maneuvering, the storm had drifted a 4 foot bunker of snow across the narrowest part of the drive, between a utility building and a high concrete block wall.  Confident in my Idaho-bred wife and our trusty 4X4 Explorer, I told her to bust through the berm ahead of me, and she did, clearing the way a bit.  The Beaver had no trouble getting traction or momentum and busted right through behind her.

At the park, no one was in attendance, so I picked out a likely spot and used the Explorer and coach to bust through drifts and mash down snow to park on.  We survived the night like bugs in a rug, and enjoyed movies while the storm raged outside, then made friends of nearby fellow RVers the next day.  The storm passed on east, it warmed, and off we went to Nebraska on a plowed freeway.  On the way home from Missouri 6 weeks later, we were stopped for a week outside Denver by another but longer-lasting blizzard.  Heading over the Rockies, the coach did great negotiating snowy passes.

Those weren't the only times we've been caught in snow since, including one situation on the ice rink raised road going to the casino in Burns where I found a brief couple seconds on the traction control switch handy to get rolling after a stop.  Although we avoid snow and ice where possible, I am confident in what the Beaver can do when necessary.  We certainly broke the coach in well.

Below is the Wyoming blizzard as it just caught up to us, including a shot of antelope running a distant ridge while we were stuck on the freeway.

Joel

[Carol Moffett]

Thank you, Bill And Joel!
   I think, armed with Bills information, Joels stories and a valium followed by a shot of whiskey, I might be able to brave it!  There would absolutely have to be palm trees at the other end!  We hope that someday soon we will be able to follow Geralds method but until then we will try to avoid it all together!   

[Doug Allman]

I currently have the area above the front cabinets opened up as we are doing a little remodeling in our 2004 Marquis. To say that there is little insulation in the front roof cap is putting it mildly.

We found a strip of R-13 kraft faced 15" wide fiberglass batt installed evidently at the factory to insulate this cavity. The roof cap is minimum 28" wide from the top of the windshield to the beginning of the flat roof.

We have always wondered why there seemed to be so much wind noise around the top of the windshield even though we have had the entire windshield removed and resealed. Living in upper lower Michigan and traveling in either very warm summers to the western states or getting on the road in December to go the same direction it is either very cold or very warm in the cabin area.

We are a spray foam contractor and I assure you when we get to Quartzsite this January that roof cap will be insulated with spray foam and be much quieter and stay warm or cooler in the cabin area, while traveling or just sitting in camp.    There are spray foam kits that make this a very easy task.    The step entry into the coach is also and area that although the manufacturer did spray foam them it was a very minimal coverage and it is also going to get several more inches applied.

[Dick Simonis]

I currently have the area above the front cabinets opened up as we are doing a little remodeling in our 2004 Marquis. To say that there is little insulation in the front roof cap is putting it mildly.

We found a strip of R-13 kraft faced 15" wide fiberglass batt installed evidently at the factory to insulate this cavity. The roof cap is minimum 28" wide from the top of the windshield to the beginning of the flat roof.

We have always wondered why there seemed to be so much wind noise around the top of the windshield even though we have had the entire windshield removed and resealed. Living in upper lower Michigan and traveling in either very warm summers to the western states or getting on the road in December to go the same direction it is either very cold or very warm in the cabin area.

We are a spray foam contractor and I assure you when we get to Quartzsite this January that roof cap will be insulated with spray foam and be much quieter and stay warm or cooler in the cabin area, while traveling or just sitting in camp.    There are spray foam kits that make this a very easy task.    The step entry into the coach is also and area that although the manufacturer did spray foam them it was a very minimal coverage and it is also going to get several more inches applied.

I would be very interested in the details of this mod since I may be having the cabinets pulled for installing a new TV.  Some pics perhaps. 

Thanks

Dick

[Bill Sprague]

..........There are spray foam kits that make this a very easy task.   

Please post more information about the spray foam kits.  Thanks.

[neil omalley]

As much info as possible. It sounds like more than just a few people are interested in the mod.

[David T. Richelderfer]

Here are some kits of spray foam... from cans for small jobs to canisters for larger jobs.

http://www.lowes.com/Building-Supplies/Insulation-Accessories/Spray-Foam-Insulation/_/N-1z11pq6/pl#!

[Joel Ashley]

Be aware that things can get warm up there, either from the direct sun, ambient outside temps., the audio/video components, or all of the above.  While insulation may help with the first two, it may aggravate trapped heat as well.  I'd consider adding extra ventilation slots and/or computer fans to protect your electronic equipment if applying more insulation.

Joel