BIRD Location > 2007 Marquis?

[Anand Shah]

Hi All,

This might be a really trivial question.  I'm finally getting ready to do a Lithium conversion, following Gene Obie's generous directions and example, looking to modify the BIRD.   I was at the coach today trying to map out all of my steps, but am having a hard time figuring out where the BIRD box is;  Looked at the 2007 wiring diagrams in Coach Assist and neither able to find the BIRD nor find a location.  Searched the forum and it seems like I'm not the only one who has had this problem but could not find an answer.  Big Boy is in the rear run box, thought the BIRD might be in the Intellitec rear closet distro panel, but not there.   My rear storage box has three 8D batteries in it, but next guess is there behind the batteries.  I'm assuming there is a BIRD.

Help?

Anand

[Frank Bergamo]

This might help you.
https://www.beaveramb.org/resources/Documents/Technical%20Forum/Common%20Problems/Batteries-Not-Charging-1.pdf. You have the BIRD/BCC PCB, located in the rear run box, to the right of the Bid Boy Solenoid. Good luck with your project.

[Anand Shah]

Thanks Frank! - what I needed!

Follow up question:  Gene disabled the Bird while the engine is running by giving an ignition hot to the genset bypass on the BIRD-2; 

Any advice on how to disable the BIRD while the engine is running on the PCB?  That is my goal here.  Otherwise need to go back to the drawing board on how to limit current to the LiPO4 batteries from the alternator.   Perhaps that means I have to go back to the Li-BIM 225 but it looks like a pain to wire with the runbox configuration and the bus bars as this is built.   My plan was to disable the BIRD with the engine running (and still save the boost / shore charge functions) and use a 60A DC-DC to charge while the engine was running by giving 12V ignition to the DC-DC.

Best,

Anand

[Anand Shah]

I suppose I could also put a switch on the trigger wire from the Bird-BCC to the Big Boy and manually disable, but that would be less elegant than I'd hope.

[Frank Bergamo]

Anand,

You might message Scott Shearer, he probably has the most knowledge on this system. I am not that familiar with the workings of this system to give you any advice on how to limit current to your LiPO4 batteries from the alternator side of the system. Good luck.

[Fred Brooks]

    Anand,
Enclosed is a picture of the devices you are looking for. They are located in the "rear run box" located inside the engine compartment on the passenger side looking from the back of the coach forward. Fred

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Arnand,
The BIRD should be mounted on the small swing out door in the rear elec bay. The Big Boy is right inside the enclosure.
Steve

[Scott Shearer]

Attached is an image of the BIRD module (BIRD/Battery Control Center PCB) that is used on most 2006 and newer Patriots and Marquis. The BIRD/BCC is located upper-right side in the rear run box, upper center of the rear run box on coaches with the chassis mux. Some early 2006 models use non-buss mounted conventional type BIRD module mount near the top of the rear run box.

The BIRD/BCC serves as the BIRD and domestic battery disconnect controller.

Images of each are shown in the document that Frank referenced above.

-Scott

[Anand Shah]

Just a note of thanks to Gene, Frank, Fred, Steve & Scott.

I think I have a plan of action - I'm removing 8x 8DL lifeline AGMs and replacing them with 4x 300AH 12 LifePO4s - should give me almost 15kw/1200AH of usable capacity.  I'm upgrading the control board on the Magnum 2812 and remote.

I'm going to disable the BCC-BIRD by disconnecting the Chassis and House battery lines into the PCB - which should keep the Boost function working and keep the Rear Run Box stock.

I'm going to do a 60A DC-DC from chassis to house to charge the bank from the alternator, and an AMP-L-START that is connected from house to chassis (disabled while the ignition is on via the relay kit it has) - this way I continue to have bi-directional charging and isolation.   The house will charge chassis when on shore power or from solar, and the alternator will charge house when the engine is running.  The boost switch will still work and so will the salesman switch. 

I'm also going to upgrade the solar controller to an MPPT device that can take a higher voltage input so I can replace non-working panels and the current two-bank Heliotrope unit that says Multi Point Power Tracking but seems like it is actually PWM and can only take a 12V input.  I have ~1000w of Solar but it doesn't seem to work right or efficiently.

Will document and share final install when I get it done, hopefully this Friday.  Maybe it will be helpful for those looking for Lithium info, and too add to Gene Obie's great documentation.   Cannot thank the folks on this forum enough for all the guidance so far.

Best,

Anand

[Frank Bergamo]

Sounds very adventurous! I have the same coach, will be watching with anticipation for your results. Good luck!

[Anand Shah]

Hi All -

I made it most of the way through this project over the weekend.   Minus a number of issues that I could have avoided if I planned and measured better, it was generally reasonable.   My coach had 8x 12V 8DLS, 4 which where in the D/S bay ahead of the wet bay and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how they were wired to the chassis bank.   Found that they had 25ft 2/0 cables connecting 800Ah of batteries to terminals  that bridged them to the house cutoff switches, where they met cables from 3 others and there was a single 8D connected directly.  Needless to say the varying cable lengths and cable sizes and the three different sets of batteries effectively in parallel (800ah, 600ah, and 200ah) explains a lot about the poor performance.

I'm still trying to figure out how to disable the BCC-BIRD without losing boost.  Ongoing effort.  Didn't get the AMP-L-START yet so haven't figured that out yet.   And it turns out the only ignition switched wire in the rear run box is the Orange/White that goes into the BCC.  All other circuits are hot with the disconnects on.  So will get that sorted.  Also - it seems the Aladdin picked up chassis voltage from the "Solar Regulator" that was connected to the orphan bank so I need to connect that to the bank in the rear and hopefully that will work again.   The "Solar Regulator" does not seem to have anything do do with the Heliotrope controller.

Attached are some pics of what I've done so far.

(1) Upgraded the MS2812 Inverter control board (thanks to Scott S for pointing out I needed to do this and finding one online for me!)

Did it with the inverter still mounted - was a relatively straightforward swap.   Only issue - My AGS is an independent one (with the adjustable pots) it does not show up as configurable on the remote even though it is connected by RJ11 cable to the inverter.  I don't know if that is an issue post upgrade or it just operates independently and did so before too.

(2) Upgraded the remote to the ME-ARC

(3) Removed the 8x - 8DLs.  Trying to save a couple and put them in an off-grid shed.  Not looking good.

(4) Installed the 4X "Wingda" 300AH LifePO4 batteries.   Cheapest I found on Amazon, all of them seem to be made by the same people with the same BMS but they seem to work reasonably well.  No low temp cutoff but not terribly concerned about it.   As long as I don't charge under 32 it should be fine.   Discharge ok to -20 C.   

(5) Installed a "Wudnum" 60A DC-DC charger (same OEM as the Renogy, cheaper), might regret it.

(6) Installed the Thornwave PowerMon battery monitor with a 75ma / 500A shunt.   Works great.  Turns out the Thornwave has all kinds of features and with a relay kit can act like a battery isolator too.   Brilliant device.  Thanks to Gene Obie for the suggestion

(7) Installed a switch to disable the DC-DC if needed

( Got to be an expert at crimping larger gauge cable terminals.   Not without many 4-letter words.

Will update again when I get it finished.   

Anand

[Scott Shearer]

Anand,

“Only issue - My AGS is an independent one (with the adjustable pots) it does not show up as configurable on the remote even though it is connected by RJ11 cable to the inverter.  I don't know if that is an issue post upgrade or it just operates independently and did so before too.”

Don’t think this is a post upgrade issue. You have the standalone version of the AGS, it does communicate with the remote, but I don’t believe that you can do anything other than set the time-of-day and the AGS status (disable, enable and enable with quiet time). It’s my understanding, to take advantage of the AGS features that your new remote offers will require upgrading to the network version of the AGS (ME-AGS-N).

The AGS-N has some really neat AGS settings, upgrading is on my list. It’s a PIA to crawl under the slide to change the AGS settings, the granularity of the settings also leaves a lot to be desired.

Scott

[Anand Shah]

Ahh.  Bit the bullet and bought the AGS-N.  E-commerce is not good for my pocketbook, and neither is this project $$$$   

[Anand Shah]

Hi All

Just updating on a finished project, the only thing left for me is to adjust or replace the MPPT solar, and to replace the AGS-S with the AGS-N.

To recap: 

Replaced 8x 8DL AGM Lifelines (1600AH / 800AH Usable) with 4x 300AH "Wingda" LifePO4 (1200AH Usable)
Upgraded MS2812 to 6.0 Via new control board
Upgraded Magnum remote to ME-ARC with Lithium profiles
Disabled Big Boy / Alternator concerns via notes below and pictures
Installed Thornwave BatteryMon and Current Shunt
60A "Wudnum" (equiv to Renogy) DC-DC charger for Chassis -> Lithium
15A "AMP-L-START" for Lithium -> Chassis (only charges when ignition off)

Upgrading* to Magnum AGS-N to have more granular control on AGS
Trying* to keep the Heliotrope MPPT but may change to a new one - still troubleshooting
Adding* a second disconnect to House, as drains on house with the existing disconnect are not conducive to storage

To solve the Alternator charging problem:

Removed Pin 1 and Pin 2 from the Molex Connector J1 on the BIRD-BCC
Removed Pin 4 fro the Molex Connector J2 on the BIRD-BCC
Fed pin 1 to fused house 12V
Fed pin 2 to boost switch (which is ground)
Used two-pin Molex connectors to create a bridge to this

This maintained the salesman switch and cutoff functions of the BIRD-BCC, and maintains the boost switch (tested via Thornwave)

Picked up Ignition 12v from J4 on the rear remote start board (blue wire in the picture)
This feeds a switch that provides fused 12V to the DC-DC and AMP-L-START
When it has a 12V signal, the DC-DC turns ON, the AMP-L-START turns OFF
AMP-L-START has a Lithium jumper that provides a trickle charge to chassis when Lithium is over 13.35V

Again, thanks to so many of you on this forum for the help and pointing me to wise places.

Best,

Anand