New Problem....Weird Electrical Glitch

[David T. Richelderfer]

I guess after keeping up wih this thread and seeing all the problems Mr. Simonis has, I feel better about buying a surge guard.  I went ahead and bought the larger 50 amp unit which is on sale at Camping World...  $326.48, including the 50 amp surge guard, a locking hasp, and freight.  I quickly checked for comparable pricing on both Amazon and Ebay - Camping World was a bit cheaper.

I am getting the model 34750 Surge Guard manufactured by TRC out of Clearwater, FL.  Now all I need to get is a combination lock for the locking hasp... and perhaps some memory pills.   http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/product/portable-surge-guards-with-lcd-display/11198

[Keith Cooper]

what you are describing with the failed power transfer relay and  inverter power transfer switch is pretty much what we saw in 2011. Based on your description you may be able to have the inverter repaired rather than purchasing a new unit. the replacement AC board was $359 +$150 labor in 2011 at an authorized Xantrex repair facility. Did my own removal and reinstall of the inverter, It is actually a fairly simple process. As an alternative take a look at the Xantrex inverter/ converter wiring the Xantrex power transfer relay  circuitry is designed to support two separate 30 amp inputs and feed two separate AC output legs. In our 2000 Patriot Thunder coach there is only one input and one output leg used. you might consider rrewiring input and output to circuit 2. No mater which way you go with this you might want to consider installing a 50a surge protector  like a trc34560 on the shore power side of  the power transfer relay to protect against external issues in the future. As to the Bose system the built invisible box is fused on the back side (2 or 3 amp auto fuse)

[Edward Buker]

While a full feature surge guard is a good thing and I think a wise investment it would not have helped Dick and Pat's problem at all and probably would have been something else needing replacement here. Those units protect the electronics in the coach from the campground electrical grid supplying harmful low voltage or high voltage conditions to the coach. What happend in this case was a massive short within the the coach in the area below the switch in the power strip that resulted in a fire. These strips are cheaply made and my guess is the switch fell apart and direct shorted the hot line to neutral of ground. That caused a massive current overload until the breaker tripped and also raised the voltage on the neutral line or ground to some extent causing the frig fuse and ground faults to trip or fail along with other electronics.

 Dick I do not know if you have started your engine or not but you should also verify that the computers that support the engine and transmission are functioning. The ground to the AC lines are also tied to the frame of the coach I believe. They are pretty robust units but best not to get another surprise. If you can start the coach and shift the transmission while in place without error codes then all is well there.  

If I had one of these strips that looked just like this one in my cabinet I would throw it away. If you can eliminate it do so. If you must have a power strip Tripp is reputable and makes four and six or more outlet versions that are all metal and at least if something fails the heat is contained. This one has its own breaker built in. It would have saved the fire and more than likely tripped its own breaker before the current level of the shorting became a major failure issue plus it has spike supression. These cheap switches and plastic strips should be outlawed but you know how that goes...

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISOBAR6ULTRA-Isobar-Protector/dp/B0000513US/ref=pd_bxgy_pc_img_z

Check your strips. Dick it looks like there is a brand on that one, will you let us all know? Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Joel Ashley]

Ed, a blow up of Dick's photo shows the brand name Belkin between the switch and the cord.  Most surge protectors advertise a guarantee for replacement of damaged property resulting from failure.  Likely it is easier to submit an insurance claim than fight Belkin, though.

Joel

[Edward Buker]

Joel,

Thanks for looking closer and sharing the Belkin label.

Later Ed

[Glenda Farris Co-Admin]

Ed, is there a durability factor difference between a 'surge protector' and a 'power strip'.


Glenda  

[Edward Buker]

Glenda,

The quality of the components used in each and the quality of the design dictate the durability issues and price can be somewhat of a guide but not always.
All things being equal, if you had two power strips with the same components and design but one had added surge suppression components and one did not, the one without surge supression is actually safer. That seems confusing but it is because you added another component and that component has a failure rate. It gets stressed by spikes coming in the AC line and eventually it can fail and then it becomes an added component failure rate that is factored in as part of the overall power strip failure rate. That is not meant to have you shy away from surpression, given it has a job, and surpression helps more expensive items survive. Here you would accept the slightly higher power strip failure rate for the much lower TV failure rate that it is being protected due to the vastly different cost.


If you need a power strip I would still look for one with an internal circuit breaker, usually a push button type, and the fact that all the components are encased in metal. That is the best you can do if you need to use one of these and that design is really quite safe. If you did not want to spend that much money I would think that the plastic units with a dual male plug that turns into 6 outlet unit that plug into the outlet directly are a better bet. They are very simple design involving no switch, cord, or internal wire connections just a formed internal metal set of connections.  That is a quality of design enhancement. Still not completely loving the plastic but these seem quite durable.

I did a little web search on fires from power strips and when they occur and there was a source photo included it always seemed to be what looked like one of the cheaper plastic types, I'm guessing non surpressor type, and the fire seems to be around the switch area like in this case. It may be cheap contacts within the switch that have increased resistance over time and eventually caused heating and a fire....a good guess. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Dick Simonis]

Bit of an update.

This has been a most interesting problem.  It seems that pretty much everything that was running at the time of the incident has been affected if some fashion.  Even those not on the same circuit.  For example, the refer had a blown fuse on the AC side and we thought that was the only problem but, after running it for awhile, I find it's not cooling very well and had to shift back to propane.  Even the alarm clock in the bedroom is dead.

The Bose system is also interesting.  Zone 2 which feeds the bedroom Base Wave Radio works OK but Zone 1 is completely dead.  It looks like the music center may be OK except the display has gotten so dim it almost can not be seen.  Also of interest is that when I called Bose I finally got routed to a tech in their invisible amp department and found out that these are custom installation designed for Beaver by Bose.  They also had the original specs on file.  Replacing the system is essentially not an option but they will factory refurbish both the sound center and amp for ~$300.00.  That's quite a bargain in my mind.

We have decided it's not reasonable for us to continue sitting in an RV in Goodyear until this situation is resolved so we're packing up and taking the coach to their facility today and just head on home in the Jeep.  The coach will be in a site with power so I can come up periodically and see what's going on and have a place to stay....about a 2 hour drive from home.

They should have the estimate into the insurance carrier in the next day or so.  I'm looking at replacing the inverter with a Magnum vs. the Xantrex if the cost is close enough that the insurance doesn't balk....just have to wait and see.  I've got my fingers crossed that the repair doesn't take too long and should find out more today when we get to the shop.

Oh, there will be NO MORE POWER STRIPS ON this Beaver.

[LEAH DRAPER]

"Oh, there will be NO MORE POWER STRIPS ON this Beaver."


THAT SOUNDS LIKE A VERY GOOD IDEA.  
A lotta of this stuff is made in CHINA and would never trust it.

[Joel Ashley]

I don't know about no more power strips, but I do know that the one in our overhead behind all the A/V components has a plastic case, and may indeed be the same Belkin as Dick's.  Reason enough I reckon to order the Tripp Lite Ultra 6 that Ed linked to, and for all the reasons he alluded to.  Ahhh, but first I have to get the wherewithall to reregister at our new BAC site so I can benefit the club via Amazon.   :-/

Dave, your coach may already have surge protection from the factory, if it is like ours and I'm not sure I see the need for a second unit here.  Check the box where your power cord enters the coach;  that is your transfer switch, and if it says Surge Guard on it, its probably protecting you;  as far as I know, all their transfer switches protect against power post issues.  But as Ed says, that's just against faulty park power, not faulty coach components.   http://surgeguard.com/40250.html

Joel

[Joel Weiss]

The Bose system is also interesting.  Zone 2 which feeds the bedroom Base Wave Radio works OK but Zone 1 is completely dead.  It looks like the music center may be OK except the display has gotten so dim it almost can not be seen.  Also of interest is that when I called Bose I finally got routed to a tech in their invisible amp department and found out that these are custom installation designed for Beaver by Bose.  They also had the original specs on file.  Replacing the system is essentially not an option but they will factory refurbish both the sound center and amp for ~$300.00.  That's quite a bargain in my mind.

FWIW I got a similar quote from Bose when my system failed in the same manner right after we took possession of the coach and I didn't think $300 was much of a bargain for a 12-yr-old analog sound system regardless of what brand it was.  Remember, regardless of what satellite receiver or Blu-ray player you are using, the Bose is only capable of delivering Dolby 2.1 analog sound.  For roughly the same amount of money we replaced the entire sound system with one that interfaced digitally with the receiver and other HDMI devices and which is capable of delivering Dolby 5.1 sound.  Do as you wish, but if my insurance company paid me $300 I'd use it to cover most of the cost of a modern audio/video system.

[Dick Simonis]

FWIW I got a similar quote from Bose when my system failed in the same manner right after we took possession of the coach and I didn't think $300 was much of a bargain for a 12-yr-old analog sound system regardless of what brand it was.  Remember, regardless of what satellite receiver or Blu-ray player you are using, the Bose is only capable of delivering Dolby 2.1 analog sound.  For roughly the same amount of money we replaced the entire sound system with one that interfaced digitally with the receiver and other HDMI devices and which is capable of delivering Dolby 5.1 sound.  Do as you wish, but if my insurance company paid me $300 I'd use it to cover most of the cost of a modern audio/video system.

Since I know virtually nothing about sound systems except that we like the sound of the Bose, I have no idea what I'd replace it with.  The two zones may or may not be an issue with something else but I just don't know.  Plus rewiring the whole coach for sound is mind-boggling.

Interestingly, the estimator at the repair facility mentioned that most insurance companies balk at repairing/refurbishing anything.  Something to do with liability if it wasn't repaired properly.  If they wish to install a brand new Bose system that is their call but the cost will be astronomcal as that seems to entail all new speakers and everything.  She will submit it both ways and we'll see what happens.

Eliminating the power strip will be easy now that the TV is on a swing arm.  The are two outlets in that cabinet and the power cords for the sat reciever and sat dish are long enough to reach...might have to bore a coupld of 1" hole in the cabinet sidewalls would be all.  The DVD player cord won't quite reach but a short extension cord would solve that issue.

FYI: this is the repair facitly.  So far I'm very impressed with them

http://www.rvmastertechs.com/

Hope this is done before Quartzite.

[Steve Huber]

Dick,
I just removed the power strip in my overhead cabinets. Found that it also was a Belkin. So, if you need a replacement, I have an experienced unit ready to go. I'll even deliver it.! Let me know and I'll bring it to Quartzsite.
Steve  

[Dick Simonis]

Dick,
I just removed the power strip in my overhead cabinets. Found that it also was a Belkin. So, if you need a replacement, I have an experienced unit ready to go. I'll even deliver it.! Let me know and I'll bring it to Quartzsite.
Steve  

Thanks, I appreciate the offer but think I will pass.  Coach is still in the shop and just got the insurance co. approval of the claim yesterday.  Most everything is readily availble but the Bose repair will take 3 weeks or so and making it to Quartzite is becoming problamatic.

One bright side is that I may upgrade the inverter to a Magnum pure sine wave for only 3-400 dollars extra.  Gotta think about this for a bit.  I do not like the rep that Zantrex has lately.  The old Freedom line were great high quality units but Xantrex seem to have let quality and customer service go downhill.

Bought a surge quard and i'm taking it up there Monday to be installed and probably finally replacing my 10yo batteriers.

[Gerald Farris]

Dick,
Replacing a defective modified sine wave Zantrex with a pure sine wave Magnum for only 3 to 400 dollars is a no brainer. I would consider a modified sine wave Magnum as a replacement instead of a Zantrex for that money a good deal, because the Magnum is that much better quality. I would never buy a new Zantrex inverter now, because of the poor quality of the unit.

Gerald