What is using all my electricity?

[Larry Fritz]

I can give you some info on our 98 Patriot 37' and I think your coach basic wiring is likely to be 95% the same.

1. Echo chargers were optional in 98 so unless a prior owner added one (as I did), it seems unlikely that you have one. Other posts have indicated how they work.  If you don't have one, then I definitely would get one but only after all your problems are solved.
2. Regarding using the ignition switch in the ccw (aux) position, I have been know to do that on occasion. Especially when the outside temps are less than 20 degrees F and if I am plugged into shore power or have the generator running.
3. The coach power switch by the front door (when working properly) sends an electrical voltage each time it is pushed to a "latching relay type" which is located under the sleeping bed on our coach. Lift up the bed for access. It basically toggles each time it gets a pulse from that front coach power switch. The relay will latch ON then the next pulse it will latch OFF then next pulse ON, etc, etc.  I don't know the route that wire takes from this switch to the latching relay. Also, the 5v pulse that you mention seems interesting.  
4. When troubleshooting electrical problems, you may want to cover your solar panels on the roof with blankets as they can get you some very strange voltages the confuse the heck out of you. Definitely get a good clamp-on ac/dc ammeter. You will use it.


I have followed your posts and you do seem to have some strange things going on. Be patient and keep at it. I bought ours when under two years old. It had seven uniquely different electrical intermittent problems and it took over 2 years to get the last one isolated. As you know, it is almost impossible to troubleshoot anything when it happens to be working at the moment yet it sounds like most of your issues are not intermittent so hopefully you will have them solved soon.

You are free to call me if you want to discuss anything in more detail and I will try to help.

Larry Fritz in Nebraska
(408) 515-5957

[Gerald Farris]

Keith,
When you turn the key to the accessory position the boost solenoid is energized. So both battery banks are tied together, and the inverter then charges all batteries at the same time. The down side to charging the chassis batteries this way is that you will shorten the boost solenoid's life, and it requires owner attention and action.

A properly functioning Echo Charger will keep your chassis batteries fully charged automatically with no action on your part.

Your coach power switch operates a latching relay as described by Larry, and the relay operates a continuous duty solenoid that supplies the 12V power for coach circuits. So you either have a bad relay (highest probability) or a bad solenoid.

Gerald

[Keith Oliver]

Larry, Gerald:

The saga continues.  

I got a wiring diagram from Loren at the Bend Beaver Service centre.  I haven't totally figured it  out, but it confirms what each of you are saying about the solenoid under the bed.  I also got a call back from the tech at Southwest Coaches in Indio, where I bought this unit, and Dwayne suggested that the solenoid is actually in the battery bay, and I might test it by banging it with a hammer.  I have the coach in for its necessary conversion to Daytime Driving lights, at our local Canadian Tire, so can't look into these suggestions until I get it home.

Dwayne also told me that the echo charge won't come on for the chassis batteries until their voltage drops below 10.5v.  I charged them fully with an industrial charger, so I will have to wait a while now before I draw any conclusions re the echo charger.

I will post when I have either of these issue figured out any further.

Thanks for your continuing interest.

Keith

[Gerald Farris]

Keith,
The statement that you heard about the Echo Charger not charging the chassis batteries until they are below 10.5V is incorrect. The Echo Charger is a voltage follower type charger and will charge the chassis batteries if the house batteries are at or above 13V and there is less than 10V difference between the two battery banks.

The Echo Charger will also reduce the charging current if the house batteries are above 14.4V to prevent overcharging the chassis batteries. So if the house batteries are within the 13V to 14.4V range a properly functioning Echo Charger will try to keep the chassis batteries at the same voltage that the house batteries are at.

Gerald

[Keith Oliver]

Gerald:

Thanks for your info re the echo charger.  

I don't have any green LED on mine.  The only LED is a red one market "thermal overload"  I will re-check the in-line 20A fuses and find a way to check to see if there is any output from this unit.  I will now also check with Xantrex to properly identify the unit and for its operating criteria.  With this being a 1998 version, I haven't been able to find an operating manual for it.  I have found one for the inverter, but it simply doesn't mention the echo charger.

My Xantrex MS2000 that I have on my boat has a built-in echo charger, that operates at all voltages, so is a likely source of false assumptions for the one on the Beaver.

I won't have much time to progress on this quest for the next few weeks, so this thread may go quiet.  I will report back as there is progress.

Keith

[Keith Oliver]

Some further investigation has revealed that there is nothing wrong with the switch at the  front of the coach.  the solenoid back in the engine room also works just fine, when it gets enough voltage.  Somehow there is a shortage of voltage.  The power switch at the front gets about 5v.  the solenoid at the back needs 12v.  There is a little shunt? beside the solenoid, connected to it, that seems to reduce the voltage from 12 to 5, so could be the culprit.  Does anyone know what this shunt is for? Or how it is supposed to work?
To work around this problem, I put in a switch at the back, connected directly to the solenoid.  It now turns the coach power on or off, but is only temporary.
At least I know I can reliably get the power turned off.

[Keith Oliver]

As for the echo charger, It has now been effectively diagnosed as dead.  I called Xantrex for help.  Their tech told me how to test it.  It failed.  A replacement is available on line for $113.95, plus shipping, or here for $184.00.  Lordco had a small smart charger for $60.00, so I wired one in.  The start batteries were getting nothing, now something, so I should be OK for a while.  I have to leave the Beaver untended for the next 3 weeks, so now I can relax about power!

[Keith Oliver]

Well now its time to tell what I have learned.
I have been away for a few weeks, with greeting our first grandchild, in Paris, France.  
I identified what I had thought was a shunt, after getting the circuit diagram from Loren at Bend, as a 250Amp fuse, between the battery isolator and the solenoid that activates/deactivates coach power.  Despite getting a voltage reading of 5 volts across the fuse, it was indeed blown.  Replaced it and now the switch at the front works to shut off the coach power, just like it should!  I now have an extra switch in the bedroom that does the same job.
I don't know why that fuse blew, as none of the wiring I could see looked bad, and everything but the things I have identified here worked properly.  I will be keeping an eye on that one, and I will also carry a spare.
The wiring diagram also discloses that the solar panels are not connected to the chassis batteries, unless the combining solenoid is engaged, so the only charging that gets to the chassis batteries is from the alternator, or if you have a functional echo charger, which I did not have.  I now have a smart charger dedicated to the chassis batteries, that is plugged into the coach AC, so is active whenever the coach is plugged in.  I also now have a disconnect attached to the chassis batteries between the negative post and the grounding cables, so I can cut all loads off if I am going to be leaving the coach unattended and not plugged in.  I understand from another thread that the ECM may need to be connected in cold weather, just to keep it from getting condensation damage.  
I am optimistic that I have now sorted out the electrical gremlins and I can go on to other issues.

[George Harwell]

Keith, glad to read your report with positive results. Sometimes problems like yours can drive you to drinking, have had a couple of those myself. At least you know a lot more about the coach now. Congratulations GRANDPA!

[LarryNCarolynShirk]

Keith,
I had a 250 amp fuse blow on my '98 Patriot.  It was replaced, but could not find the cause.  2 blocks down the road it blew again.  This time the cause was evident.  The positive cable from the battery to the fuse, was routed across the top of an engine stud.  As the engine torqued, the stud rubbed against the cable.  Eventually the cable became welded to the stud.  The Beaver production people just did not do the job with any forethought.  I moved the fuse holder up about 6", which moved the connected cable away from the engine.  No further problems with the 250 amp fuse.

Before you move your coach, you may want to check the cables for ware spots.

Larry

[Keith Oliver]

Larry:
Thanks for that heads up.  I will check it out.
Keith

[Edward Buker]

Kieth and All,

Cat folks got back with me today regarding the question, Is it O.K. to drop the ECM power for long periods of time and why were our coaches wired such that the ECM is powered all the time? For reference the individul who worked within Cat to get the answers was Bob Kulpa at the ECM hotline number 309-578-5999.

The first question is what ECMs do our coaches use. There are two versions, the Atom 2 which had 2- 40 pin connectors and drew about 700MA. They were used up through part of 99 with C12 engine prefixes No 1YN and 9NS. The later version is the Atom 3 used with engine prefixes 2KS and MBC. They have two 70 pin connectors and draws about 300MA. He obtained those numbers by bench testing and said they had field complaints with the Atom 2 draining chassis batteries. My coach has the Atom 3 and draws 1.1 amps from the chassis batteries in total with everything in the coach off. That number includes other electronics with memory including the Allison ECU. One would think that coaches with the Atom 2 would be drawing about 1.5 amps all the time.

The question as to why the coaches were wired with power to the ECM all the time? The rational for doing so was unclear except that it was a stable condition and when power is applied there is a 7 second lag for the ECM to recover and wake up. Eliminating that lag seemed to be the best answer behind the motivation to leave the ECM powered all the time.

The question about condensation and thermal stability affecting the ECM reiaibility. Cat folks thought that the sealing of the ECU and the package design was robust enough and that there was no need to maintain power for environmental reasons.

The question about the ECM lithium battery life being affected. The lithium battery gets charged from the 12V supply and each time the ECM loses power it writes parameter information to the flash memory. The battery is expected to have a 10 year life and they do not see that life being significantly impacted by dropping power part time. The first sign of a failing lithium ECM backup battery would be loss of hour and clock information. There is a remote chance in reading and writing data that an error is made but it has not been a problem.

The best test for this dropping of power lies in the fire and military community. According to Bob, many military and emergency fire applications drop the power to the chassis during extended storage intervals and they have not observed any systematic problems. Bob did say that from time to time they have had a random failure of an ECM while chassis batteries were being changed. They had no answer as to why.

The intent of all this was to try and close out the ECM power question and the net of this is that dropping power should not cause ECM issues. It may be good to provide power to the ECM once a month for an hour or so to recharge the lithium battery. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Keith Oliver]

I thought I just killed my chassis batteries last time out, but have found out I am getting no chassis battery charge off the shore power or generator.  I noticed my battery cutoff switch does not light up but functions. My manual says there's a fuse in the back closet for this, but I checked it out, and nothing is blown.  I believe I have 2 relays and 2 solenoids that go to the big boy, to allow charge to the chassis batteries.  Am I correct on that?  Monaco told me to check the gray box in the battery compartment but I don't have that.  Any ideas would help.

Thank you

[Larry Fritz]

Keith: My 98 Patriot 37' built in July of 98 does indeed have a CHASSIS solar panel on the roof. It is small (like 14" square or so) and the two large solar panels are for the COACH batteries.

Once years ago, I went through the drill of where is the "screwy low voltage coming from" and found it was the solar panels. It is easy to check by just going up on the roof.

As near as I can tell, the CHASSIS small solar panel does not have a regulator on it. You can put a heavy blanket over it to stop the voltage production when you are testing. (or disconnect the solar panel)

I have finally installed battery disconnect switches on both the CHASSIS and the COACH batteries at the batteries so when I shut them off there is nothing getting to or discharging the batteries.

Larry Fritz

[Keith Oliver]

Larry:
Thanks for that.  Now I understand others who have posted to say that their solar panel is connected to the Chassis batteries.
I wondered what I had on the roof, and when I got the circuit diagram from Beaver, it only shows the twin 2'x4' panels, connected only to the house batteries.  I also have a small panel that looks older and that I haven't tried to chase for its connection to the chassis batteries.  I assume that the weather while my Beaver was waiting for permission to become a "Great Canadian Beaver" wasn't good enough to provide more than a few miliamps of power to the Chassis batteries during that 3 week period.  (March, rainy, at 49deg N latitude)
How do you tell if an old solar panel is still functioning to its design specifications?  First I guess I would need to find a wire, then measure the amperage and note the angle of the sun.  At 49deg north, I wonder if a panel that small would do anything, especially in the winter.  When I come south, I will measure again.
I have wired my small smart charger so that it can charge the Chassis batteries whether or not the batteries are disconnected.  I don't yet have a disconnect on the house batteries.  At this point I don't think I need one.