Some Driving Impressions and Some Questions

[Dick Simonis]

OK, we've finally got some road miles on our Beaver, and I need a reality check on a few items, as I have no experience driving these things.

Up until the time we left Bend heading East, I've not been on a straight road, and hadn't even been able to try the CC.  From Bend to Idaho I never got into 6th gear, and was starting to doubt, if I even had one.  However 5th gear seemed to pull most any grade at 55 mph and about 1400 rpm, so I wasn't to concerned.

Steering feels a bit vague, but with so many turns lock to lock, I guess having to make constant correction shouldn't be unexpected.  There does not seem to be any "play" in the wheel, as twitching it back an forth does result in steering changes.  It's not a hand off the wheel experience, and it will have a bit of pull, depending on the road camber.  Tires are wearing normal, without any cupping or other signs of wheel alignment issues.

Brakes...well they take some getting used to.  Stops in a straight line, but sure are mushy.  Hard braking seems fine, just a lot of spongy travel.

Ride, seems fine without any detectable body roll, and just sort of floats along.  If the road is rough, I can certainly feel the bumps and expansion joints, but nothing like my Tundra.  Ignorance may be bliss, but we're sure happy with the ride comfort.

Once we left Caldwell, ID en route to Idaho Falls, I had my first taste of interstate driving, and YES, I do have a 6th gear.  At 63 in economy mode, it shifts back an forth between 6th an 5th.  Steering is still vague, and with a 10-15 mph quartering wind, I could feel a bit of buffeting from large rigs passing us.  On occasion, I would drift right and hit the rumble strips, then it would pull even harder.....not bad, but annoying.

Going N on I-15 the road is heavily traveled with noticeable ruts, and here the steering got real annoying.  If I drifted left, a combination of the rumble strips and a slight change in the grade, really pulled me right and the tendacy to overcompensate was tough due to heavy truck traffic in the left lane.  This was unpleasant.

Does all this info sound fairly normal, or should I be looking for some corrective action??

Thanks for any advice.

Dick and Pat

[JimCasazze]

From my experiance with our '99 PT, your ride and braking seem to be correctly described.  We have not been out to the mountains yet, so I don't know about the 5/6th gear, climbing that you discussed.

I have had some problems with my cruise control on long grades.  I notcided the coach started to "buck" in 5th gear while the cruise was on.  What I mean by "buck" is almost like stomping on the gas, then off, then on, etc until it feels like the coach wants to oscillate.  I have not discussed this on the forum or tried to determine why it happens yet.  If cruise is off, I do not see the problem occur.  Cat checked the engine diags and found no codes posted.

Other than that, I will tell you that our CC will not work if the Exhaust brake is on (in either position).  I thought my CC was out, until I remembered playing with the little rocker swtich on the console.  I thought the off position of the 3 position Exhaust Brake switch was down in the back.  It is NOT.  The off position is center position if you haven't discovered that already.

Overall, I'd say the handling of our coach is reasonable for it's height, weight and windage.  Personally, I find it more fatiguing to drive the coach, then driving a car.  It's not the ride itself (which is very smooth), but more of a constant need to correct the wheel and stay more alert for other drivers that will pull in front of you with only 5 feet of room.

Enjoy your new home.
Jim

[LEAH DRAPER]

Sounds to me like you both need some type of steering stabilizer to assist keeping from being buffeted around by wind, big trucks and wandering.  I had those problems with problems with both Beaver Pat/Thunder and the current
Contessa.  I have Blue Ox's True Center and love it.  It allows for on the fly adjustments if needed or wanted.  I hardly even notice when rigs/trucks pass except for watching them in my mirrors.

Might want to check it out.

Other comment is if you are using the exhaust brake you shouldn't be in CC.

[Joel Ashley]

Dick and Pat-

Your tranny is programmed such that it won't go into 6th gear until you hit the vicinity of 60mph (an Allison rep told us the exact mph, but I forgot it).  Economy Mode lowers the shift points (RPM wise), but should be overridden in steeper hill country.  Other factors are involved, including RPM and whether or not the exhaust brake is engaged.  The issue then becomes whether one should go 60+ in 6th at a lower RPM or go 55 in 5th;  it's individual experience that dictates which gives the best fuel mileage.  Definitely take advantage of the cruise control on non-hilly freeways, as it can make a huge mpg difference over a micro-pumping human foot; but kill the CC and use the exhaust brake down steep grades, to save your service brakes.  A lot of this was mulled over in several Forum threads last month, so go to the top of this page, click the <Search> button, and enter "Allison" for a review of related commentary.

Consider Leah's suggestion of a stabilizer like True Center or Steer-Safe.  The Steer-Safe helped a lot on our old Pace Arrow.  I haven't put one on our Beaver because it steers fine as is.  But I still might put one on because stabilizers provide a safety benefit in the event of a catastrophic tire blowout.  Check steering stabilizer prices out at somplace like Campingworld.com and you'll see that they won't break the bank, esp. given the benefit they give - relief from the depth of anxiety your post expressed.  

The next time you're back to Lebanon, think about a trip down the fwy to Henderson's Line-up Shop in Grant's Pass, and have them check your rig.  You might come away with a whole new coach, handling-wise.  Henderson's is a BAC sponsor and one of the very best at diagnosing and treating motorhome maladies like yours.  They may recommend a new Bell Crank such as SuperSteer's, as well.  And they can check your brakes.

You spent a lot for your coach and you should be able to enjoy the driving experience;  a relatively small amount more will likely get you there.  

Joel

[Marty and Suzie Schenck]

There are various things to consider with your handling and braking symptoms. The handling problem could be as simple as a ride hieghth adjustment or a front end alignment. As for your braking, you have to remember you weigh almost 38,000lbs. and it may have disk brakes but it's not going to stop like a car or even a pick-up truck. If your brakes are spongy have them checked, they may need new pads and rotors turned. I have a 2002 Patriot Thunder and we bought it 4 years ago with 8300 miles on it (30,000 now) and no modifications were or have been done to it at all. It steers great, stops fine and in general is a pleasure to drive (many 10 hour days). My coach is a one hand steer even when trucks pass me.
Marty

[Dick Simonis]

Joel, please don't get me wrong, overall I pretty satisfied with it and there is just some getting used to.  That one stretch of I-15 just caused me some issues an I know a lot of it is my own inexpericence.  As we wander our way south through NV I'll get a better idea of what is me and what is the coach.  What I wanted to do here was just to get a reality check and see if my oberservations mirror other owners and that seems to be the case.  I am going to consider the steer Safe and may even make a little side trip to Demming (only 200 miles from Tucson) and have them do the install....not too pricey at all and who knows there might even be a golf course there.

I've kind of gotten the hang of the Jake brake operation and I do like it.  Most often low works just fine and it's helplfu that it shuts of the CC at the time of engagement.  High power really puts the brake on so to speak and the tranny downsifts pretty aggressivly but not so aggressivly that the rpm's ever get above 2300.  Granted there isn't much in the way of hills between Bend and here but just enough so I could play a bit.

As far as 5th vs 6th goes, I just let Mr. Allison make that decision.  Besides, the Cat manual says best economy come from lugging the engine as much as possible.  Seems that 63 in 6th is ~1300 rpm which appears to be in the sweet spot of the torque curve.  Can't complain about 8.8 mpg from Caldwell to Idaho Falls (305 miles) with a head wind the whole way.  Better than my Tundra and TT but down from the 9.4 at 55 from Bend to Caldwell.  Cat says the every MPH over 55 cuts the economy by 0.10 mpg so they're pretty close.

Note:  Speeds are from my GPS.  Seems the coach speedo is about 2-3 mph high while the Silver Leaf appears dead on.

[Jeremy Parrett]

New Bilstien shocks  ( and steering tires that have an H rating and suitable load capacity (295/80 R 22.5 's )made a huge difference to my steering .The coach no longer follows ruts nor does it wander when trucks go by. The standard tires were overloaded (11R22.5 )
 Check your tires and shocks before you add these new fangled gadgets to hide the real issues!!

[Marty and Suzie Schenck]

As far as the Jake Brake goes DO NOT let that C-12 engine rev over 2100 RPM period!!!!!! If you are going 65 mph and engage the jake you are at the upper rpm limit for that engine if it automaticly downshifts to 4th gear. There have been other posts about this problem and I for one had my Allison trans reprogramed for this reason. There are at least 2 other people from other forums that have had engine damage done because of this downshift over reving. It is to big of an investment to trust computer parameters to protect an engine or transmission.
Marty

[Joel Weiss]

I'm running J-rated Michelin 275/70-22.5 XZE2+ and my steering seems better than you all are reporting.  I just drove I-15 to and from Idaho Falls from Montana and am now in Spokane.  On the straight parts of I-15 I could literally take my hands off the wheel with the coach going straight down the road.  You may also be interested in my recent post about the Super Steer motion control units Henderson installed on our air bags.  Although they don't affect steering directly they significantly improved its ride.

I'm not sure which of these (or all of them) is contributing to my ride and handling, but I'm not complaining.  The coach had the J-rated tires on it when we bought it and I replaced them with the same.  I realize they are a lot more than is required for our load but for our weight the correct inflation is 110 front/100 rear and that seems to contribute to the good ride.

As for use of the Jake, I've now mastered using it and, at the same time, controlling the transmission's shifting by use of the "arrow" keys.  Coming through the pass on I-90 from Montana into Idaho I followed an 18-wheeler at ~45 mph with my Jake on and the transmission in 3rd.  I literally didn't have to use the brake more than once or twice and the rpm's held steady just below 2000.  I was reading material on the Jacobs website and they made it clear that the braking effect is greatly affected by how close engine rpm's are held to the red line.  At higher rpm's the braking effect of the Jake is much greater than even a few hundred rpm less.  Jacobs didn't provide "numbers" but their example was that an engine turning at 1700 rpm would have significantly more braking than one at 1500 rpm.

[LarryNCarolynShirk]

When you have the alignment checked, have them check the rear axle.  It needs to be not only square with the frame, but also centered from side to side with the frame.  Some of the Magnum chassis were not aligned side to side.  My '98 Patriot rear axle was off 1 1/2 inches to the left.  It took me 5 years to find it.  Then Beaver paid to fix it, even after 5 years.  That fix, corrected the wandering issue, and made it a no hands experience.  Before I found the bright metal spot on the frame where the suspension was rubbing, I wore a hole in the arm rest with my elbow trying to keep the rig on the road.  This could resolve your handling issue.

After 12 years, you may want to change the break fluid, (not an easy chore on the 2000 PT) to be sure that is not adding to your break issue.

In hilly country, turn off the Mode button on the Allison, to down shift faster.  This will keep up your RPMs, and reduce your engine temperature.

Larger Michelin tires will give you a smother ride and carry more weight.  Be sure the tires will fit the wheel well when turned side to side.  The PT was heavy on the front axle, and needed maximum tire pressure in the front tires to carry it.  The newer Michelins will carry more weight, than the factory tires of the same physical size.  That will give you some safety factor to reduce the pressure, and have a more pleasant ride also.

Just some thoughts from my experience.

Larry

[Joel Weiss]

As far as the Jake Brake goes DO NOT let that C-12 engine rev over 2100 RPM period!!!!!! If you are going 65 mph and engage the jake you are at the upper rpm limit for that engine if it automaticly downshifts to 4th gear. There have been other posts about this problem and I for one had my Allison trans reprogramed for this reason. There are at least 2 other people from other forums that have had engine damage done because of this downshift over reving. It is to big of an investment to trust computer parameters to protect an engine or transmission.
Marty

When I'm running the Jake hard in the mountains I found it was helpful to set the SilverLeaf to display rpm.  That way I have accurate engine data.  I'm careful not to engage the Jake above 65 and when I do I make sure speed stays under that.  I was going to have the Allison reprogrammed, but after reading about the relationship to Jake braking power and engine speed I decided to leave it alone and simply to be careful.

[Gerald Farris]

Two of the the above post in this thread made reference to a Bendix air brake booklet in reference to the design of the brake system on a 2000 Patriot. The brakes on a 2000 Patriot are not air brakes, but they are actually hydraulic brakes that use a booster powered by compressed air from the air system to increase brake line pressure like power brakes on a car. The parking brake is the only air operated brake on a 2000 Patriot.

Gerald  

[Joel Weiss]

Two of the the above post in this thread made reference to a Bendix air brake booklet in reference to the design of the brake system on a 2000 Patriot. The brakes on a 2000 Patriot are not air brakes, but they are actually hydraulic brakes that use a booster powered by compressed air from the air system to increase brake line pressure like power brakes on a car. The parking brake is the only air operated brake on a 2000 Patriot.

Gerald  

Gerald--

To be precise, the "parking brake" on a 2000 Patriot is also the emergency brake and it is automatically activated if air pressure falls below ~60 psi.  This means that a Patriot acts as if it is an airbrake vehicle and drivers should be aware of the issues associated with pumping brakes, etc.  It also means that owners should be aware that maintaining the parking brake is important if one wants to have an effective emergency braking system.  I just learned that a previous owner of my coach apparently drove with the parking brake engaged and I am in the process of ordering parts to restore it to full operational capability.

Joel

[Jeremy Parrett]

a little reminder about "rear end steering" !  It can happen when the radius rod bushings are worn .
 Drive the coach on a level  road at a normal speed.....take your foot off the gas......then apply the gas again. If the rear end wanders and realigns when you apply the gas you have an alignment problem caused by worn bushings on the radius rods.

[Edward Buker]

Jeramy where did the "gas" come from? No wonder your rear end is wandering :-)

Later Ed