Chassis Batteries

[Larry Dedrick]

Larry has been doing lots of maintenance on the coach and has had a new issue arrive.  He went to start up the generator and it wouldn't start.  He jumped it from the house batteries and all was well.  The next day same issue chassis batteries would not start generator.  After much searching on the forum we are still not sure what the problem may be.  I'm thinking it is our Echo Charger if that is indeed what we have.  He thinks it's a solar panel issue.  My question is should the solar panels be capable of charging the house batteries above 13volts?  We have placed a bet in the outcome and will check the Echo Charger when we go to the coach today.
Thanks,
Laura
PS we replaced all puck lights to LED style bulbs and cannot figure out how the first two on the ceiling on either side when you enter the coach turn on!  There are almost 60 puck style lights in the coach and this job turned out to be a bigger hassle then we planned for but are sure glad we did it!

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Laura,

The 2 entry puck lights are probably wired to the headlight switch. Turn the switch CCW and they will come on, if your coach is wired like mine.

The battery problem sounds like the echo charger. There are 3 versions and I'm not sure which your coach has; Echo, Magnum, or Bird. All have roughly same function, charge the chassis batteries once the house batteries are at full charge. I think all have some sort of indicator lights that will give you an indication as to what they are doing. The house batteries have to be charged; about 13.2V, before the echo charger will apply a charge voltage to the chassis batteries.

The solar panel will output voltages as high as 15+v but the current available is fairly low so i don't think it's capable of "charging"batteries that are discharged. Its function is more to maintain the battery charge.

Running the geni with the inverter in charge mode should get your house batteries to about 13,2v and then the echo charger should apply a charge voltage to the chassis units. Also, check for loose connections / fuses in the echo charger circuit.

Steve

[Larry Dedrick]

Steve,
We went to the coach this morning and we have an Echo Charger and it was flashing green.  Larry went to check the fuse and it broke off in the holder.  We are off to get fuses now.  Will check the puck lights when we return.  Thanks for the info!  I was going crazy trying to figure out how to turn them on!  Looks like I may have won the bet

[Edward Buker]

Laura,

The blinking light as opposed to a solid light indicates that the house batteries are not at a voltage that supports charging (approx. 13v). Check the house battery bank voltage and if they are 13V plus then check if the Echo charger has the 13+V coming into it. If it does then check the output of the Echo charger going to the chassis battery bank. It should supply about .2V lower than the input voltage if the chassis batteries are charged, lower while charging a lower chassis battery charge state. If the Echo charger seems OK, check for a possible bad battery. You can change those non automotive type fuse holders to an inline plastic two pin automotive type. (15Amp) Places like NAPA auto parts etc will have the better style weatherproofed with a rubber cover. You will need to get a non blinking LED condition on the Echo charger to have it work, whatever the cause is.

Later Ed

[Larry Dedrick]

Ed and Steve:
             A little history that may be of value evaluating what is going on with our battery charging situation.
             When Laura and I left Hilton Head during the Southern Comfort Rally our voltage while underway was indicating as high as 15.9 volts on the Silverleaf and it settled in at about 15.4v to 15.6v. I know this is high and I believe the max is 16.0v, also I do believe normal is around 14.0v to 14.2v. I mention this so as to give you information pertaining to our chassis charge scenario if this may have contributed to our problem. Since we have been back, I have not seen this high of voltage on the silver leaf. The voltage now, is showing about 13.4v and with the generator running along with the alternator it shows about 14.4v.So could this high of volts (15.9) have caused a failure affecting the echo charger? I plan on checking each coach battery tomorrow to see if the voltage could have damaged one of the batteries.
              Today, the fuses were replaced and the ground was checked and all is good with these three items, however the echo charger continues to display a flashing green light even though the coach batteries reflected 13.2v. I will check the input and output of the echo charger tomorrow, if I can figure where to place my contacts from my voltmeter. Also will check each battery and I believe I will have to disconnect cables to do this?
               I really appreciate your patience and with me on this problem.

                                       Larry D

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Larry,

Really sounds like Echo charger or a bad chassis battery. Yes, you'll have to disconnect one of the jumper cables, preferably the one that jumpers the chassis batteries positive terminals together. That will isolate them so you can get a voltage reading on each. also disconnet the load at the disconnect switch.
You house units seem OK based on you reading of 13.2v.

The 15+v Silverleaf readings seem too high for the alternator output. If this was driving. I'd suspect a bad voltage regulator on the alternator. This may be the cause of your chassis battery problems. I wouldn't put new ones in until this was fixed. Ed thoughts??

Steve

[Edward Buker]

Larry,

The 15+volts while driving had to come from the alternator if the generator was off. It seemed to settle down to a correct 14V and it may be that the sense circuit in the regulator was getting some erroneous input as a reference voltage. Perhaps a bad connection or a regulator showing signs of failure. If it happens again I would pull the alternator and have it rebuilt and a new regulator installed.

The Echo Charger would not be damaged by 16V on the input. BTW I mentioned 15 amp fuses in a prior post but the Echo Charger comes with 20 amp fuses.

Probing the charger should go as follows. With the coach plugged into shore power and the house charger on see if the coach house  batteries are sitting at about 13.4V or so. If so go to the wire that leads to the echo charger from the battery bank and probe between chassis bank ground and the end of the fuse that goes to the echo charger. You may have to hold it against the wire end in the holder to do this measurement. You should see the same 13.4V.  Reconnect that fuse. Now go to the starting battery fuse holder and remove it. Now measure the chassis battery bank between the ground and the plus. If the Echo Charger was working it should be close to the 13.2 range from just being charged. If it is 12V or bellow either the charger is not working or you could have a bad chassis battery that the Echo Charger cannot bring up. If the light is still blinking with the fuse back in you could disconnect the large jumper between the two chassis batteries to isolate them and connect the Echo charger Chassis Battery plus lead to each chassis battery one at a time to see if the light stops blinking on one of the two batteries. Basically you are unlikely to have two bad batteries and you are looking to see that the Echo Charger can go into a charge state on a good battery. If the ground connection, the fuses, and the plus wire leads are all in good shape and the blinking led continues to blink on both chassis batteries independently then replace the Echo Charger.

While on shore power you can manually use a battery jumper cable to connect the house 12V terminal to the chassis 12V terminal to keep them charged and remove it to travel until you can get a new Echo Charger.

If working properly the blinking led means that the house battery voltage is out of the range of 13 to 17V or the difference between the house and chassis battery voltage exceeds 10V. If either of those conditions do not exist and the led still blinks with good fuses and wiring the Echo Charger is defective.

Later Ed

[Larry Dedrick]

Ed and Steve:
              I will continue to troubleshoot as per your instruction, and I again Thank You both for the advice. My Echo charger wires, Chassis and coach battery wires do not go directly to the battery, but go to some other unit mounted adjacent to it. At this stage I don't know what this unit is, but there are battery cables that connect this other unit to the batteries. It is difficult to see where these cables run (red) and I am assuming they must go to the respective battery. I will get a mirror and confirm this, also I will get a pic of this unit. So. Echo chassis and coach wires from the Echo charger (with the fuses) go to this other unit, and connect to two other separate cable connections on this unit with battery cables continuing from the same post connected to the Batteries.
          Hopefully, I described the wire path appropriately enough that you can understand.
                     Heading for the coach now.


              Larry D

                                            

[Larry Dedrick]

Gentlemen:
              I wish I had remembered this earlier. When Laura and I picked the coach up in January, I noted the coach batteries (lead acid flooded ) were spewing electrolyte all over the batteries (overcharge or excessive charging I believe) so I requested new AGM batteries to be installed. The old batteries were never checked for a bad cell, but I thought it best to go to AGM to get away from electrolyte maintenance and corrosion. So, hopefully now you have  "The Rest Of The Story" at least until I finish troubleshooting.

                  Larry D.

[Edward Buker]

Larry,

You need to be sure that the charge cycle is set up properly and that the house charger is not overcharging your battery bank. That result of spewing electrolyte can be over charging or a response to a shorted bad battery.

Later Ed

[Larry Dedrick]

Ed:
          With the new 6 volt deep cycle coach batteries (AGM), 6 of them, there has been no problems that I can see. They checked out at 5.83 volts individually (isolated from each other) this morning before anything was turned on. The chassis batteries checked out at 11.83 volts individually. I'm thinking that I should, the next time the chassis batteries drain down, is to turn on the generator and if the voltage comes up on the chassis, then they must be getting a charge. Actually thinking about this, the two times i needed to use the coach batteries with the jumper switch to start the generator (chassis batteries were to low of voltage to start the gen) the chassis batteries must have received a charge due to the fact that I started the engine. Does this make any sense?
           Also I traced the Echo charge wire for the coach batteries from the echo charger to the unknown device adjacent to it and from there a battery cable to a junction with another battery cable continuing to the coach batteries.
            The Echo charger wire for the chassis batteries go to this same device (different connect post) and from there a battery cable to a junction with another cable continuing to the chassis batteries.

                     Larry D

[Larry Dedrick]

OK Guys:
              My chassis batteries were 11.8 volts individually this morning. With ignition switch on for the silver leaf, chassis battery voltage 12.2 volts. After starting generator off of chassis batteries the voltage eventually reflected 12.8 to 12.9 on the silver leaf and 13.0 volts on my voltmeter at the chassis batteries. I believe based on this change in voltage, the gen must be sending a charge to the chassis batteries. However the echcharger LED continues flashing. Could the Echocharger be sending a charge but there is a problem with indication (LED)?
              The coach monitor panel is reflecting as high as 13.4 volts on the coach batteries and fluctuates between 13.1 and 13.2 most of the time. however the Echocharger LED continues to flash.
             Now, What do you think about this:
                    I believe the solar panels are not producing enough voltage to maintain the coach batteries around 13.2 volts and therefore the chassis batteries will not receive a charge to sustain them. If I understand correctly, the solar does not charge the coach batteries UNLESS the Solar has maintained the coach batteries around 13.2 or above OR the solar will never charge the chassis. I believe Gerald indicated, the Solar will not affect the Chassis voltage?
              Hope I haven't confused anyone, just passing along my troubleshooting.

                          Larry D
            

[Steve Huber Co-Admin]

Larry,

The LED is OK if it is lighting up.  Possible LED states:
   Green Steady: Echo Charger (EC) is operating normally.
   Green Flashing: House batteries below 13v or above 17v. Or the EC is seeing greater than a 10v difference between house and chassis batteries.
   Red Steady: Thermal Shutdown
   OFF: Fuse in line from house batteries to EC is blown or a bad ground connection. No voltage detected from house batteries.

This would seem to indicate there is a resistive component between the house batteries and the  EC. There should be 3 wires coming into the EC;
 Red:  House Battery (with inline fuse).
 Striped: Chassis Battery
 Black: Ground

If you can get to the EC connections check these with your voltmeter. You should read the house battery voltage between the Red and black wires and the chassis battery voltage between the striped and black wire. Be sure to use the ground on the EC (black wire). If neither of the voltages are correct in reference to what you read at the batteries, you  probably have a bad ground. If only the Red wire voltage is low, the problem is between the EC and the batteries. Remove the connections at the battery and make sure they are clean (baking soda / water or a battery cleaner from an auto supply store (Auto Zone, etc). Pay particular attention to where the wires come into the terminals as you can get corrosion there that isn't obvious but can add resistance. Consider re-crimping the red wire that goes to the EC. Also, if you can, wiggle or remove the connections at the EC and then re-seat them in case resistance has built up there.

Looks like the chassis batteries are capable of taking a charge so they are probably OK. I don't think your solar panels are in play at all with this problem.

I'll email you a copy of the EC manual in case you don't have one.

Steve

[Larry Dedrick]

Steve:
         Thanks for the advice, I will try and check the voltage as you suggested . We do have the manual for the EC, if you haven't yet sent it.

                     Larry D.

[Edward Buker]

Larry,

Is your coach plugged into shore power all the time? The 5.83V should be 6.25V roughly if the 6V batteries are fully charged, The 11.83V should be 12.6V roughly for the chassis if fully charged. The coach batteries being at 13.1 to 13.2V while charging is proper and just fine. When that voltage is present the Echo Charger should not be blinking. If the fuses, leads, and ground are as they should be you most likely have a bad Echo Charger.

Your question about the generator being on. The generator is wired typically to the chassis batteries and it does contain a small alternator so it will charge the chassis batteries while running separate from the Echo Charger.

The fact that normal chassis charging voltages were reached using the generator (generator alternator) and normal charging voltages were reached for the house bank using the house charger/inverter and the fact that you saw voltages that were high enough to turn on a good Echo Charger (+13V) to provide current flow from the house to the chassis battery bank, I have to conclude that it is probably time to order a new Echo Charger given your chassis bank is not staying adequately charged.

If you see 13.2V -13.8V on the house bank and anything like 11.8 to 12.5V on the chassis bank and the Echo Charger light is still blinking then it is hard to believe the fault is anything else.

Later Ed