Wire tracing for 2000 Patriot

[Dan DeKorte]

[face=Arial]Hello, I am currently having a major issue with my 2000 Beaver Patriot 33' Concord with regards to a particular wire that seems to be shorting out.  It is a wire coming from the CB23 fuse in the front electrical bay and it is labeled #270 Ign Mag ID and later it includes the number 571. Can anyone give me an idea where this wire routes to? I have been trying to trace it for an hour to no luck, and in all the schematics cannot find the C5 layout for my year of coach.

Thanks,

Dan DeKorte[/face][size=9][/size][size=14][/size]

[Gerald Farris]

Dan,
The Mag ID was the predecessor to the Silverleaf system that your coach came with. So I would guess that it may be the power supply for your Silverleaf system. However, I would suggest that you get a tone generator, and that will make tracing the circuit fairly simple.

Gerald

[Dan DeKorte]

Gerald thank you for the response!   I should have been a little more precise in my last post. My father is a electronic guru and has been assisting me with the problem.  The wire draws 35 amps of current causing the 15 amp breaker to pop, then once it has a chance to reset it will take between 3 & 8 seconds to draw enough current to pop the breaker again.  We have attempted to use a wire tracer to no success as we think this wire is grounding out somewhere in its path.  We had determined that the silverleaf was effected by this wire, but once unplugging the connector of the silverleaf the issue was still there.  So that lead us to believe that wire is supplying power to a system that feeds a signal to the silverleaf. We can follow the wire up through the bulkhead, but loose it once inside the coach as it is in the corner and there are of course several wire bundles supplying items behind the dash and the switch panel next to the driver side.  I am hoping BCS in Bend might be able to tell me the first point the wire connects to in order to test that system out.  Thanks again.

Dan

[Edward Buker]

Dan,

Try disconnecting the wire at the breaker and at the Silverleaf. Then put an ohmmeter between ground and the wire and see what the resistance is. That will tell you if there is a path to ground. If there is you can start moving wire bundles where you think that wire may travel and see if you can get the meter to respond. If you get a response you should be able to locate the short. If that fails then route a new temporary wire between the breaker and the Silverleaf and see if the problem goes away and if the current draw is appropriate. If so route it permanently as a replacement. Then check to se that all the accessories work so that you know some other item was not fed by that wire.

Later Ed

[Dan DeKorte]

Thank you Ed for the response.  Unfortunately we have already ruled out the power to the silverleaf as the issue, the problem still occurs once you remove the wire connector from the back of the silverleaf, thus removing the actual silverleaf display unit from the issue.  Also the #270 wire is not part of the six or so wires that connect to the back of the silverleaf, they are actually 16 or 18 guage wire not the 14awg that the feed line is.  Can either you or Gerald or another member tell me if the VMS200 unit has another box/brain unit somewhere else in the coach? Or is it completely contained in the in-dash display? Maybe there is another power relay that the wire connects to?

Luckily for me I am not full-timing, and this problem just ruined a weekend camping trip. I am able to leave it in my driveway for a couple of days.

Also let me just say that I am very thankful to have this forum & members as a great resource for our coaches! We are signed up for the Redmond rally, which will be our first, and am looking forward to it!

Thanks again,

Dan

[Edward Buker]

Dan,

If you disconnect the 270 wire at the CB23 and did an inventory of everything that works and does not work it may lead you to an understanding if that circuit does branch and feed other items. If so you can disconnect those items one at a time at the units and see if lifting any of those wires reduces the current. If not you know for sure that it is the harness wire.

As far as the Silverleaf is concerned I think it is a self contained unit but I have no in depth knowledge of the unit to be sure. It would just seem that the circuitry to do that job would well fit into that housing and that appears to be true from a quick check at their website. They are still in business and you could probably reach them through the website or call.

http://www.silverleafelectronics.com/node/1

You may also want to call BCS and see if they have run into this problem and have some knowledge of that circuit. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Dan DeKorte]

Thanks again for the response, I will be talking with BCS to see if they can shed some light on the subject. I will see if I can tear into the harness a bit more to find the termination point.  Will post the results once I figure it out.

Dan

[Edward Buker]

Dan,

I would consider doing that inventory of what will not work that I mentioned with the wire lifted off the breaker. I say that because that wire heads to the dash to pick up the Silverleaf and there is not a lot of places to hit ground up there where you would expect chafing. If it heads under the coach that may be a different story. If it pulls a pretty steady current at 35 amps I think it is more likely a defective unit of some kind at one of the termination power feeds.

Later Ed

[Dan DeKorte]

As best I can tell, the only system not working is the Silverleaf, I will do as you suggested and try to locate the wire inside the coach.  It is somewhat intermittent as I fired the coach up and backed out of my RV cover to work on it yesterday morning, and it did not have any issues.   Will try the ohm meter between the wire & ground, and see if the resistance changes upon moving the harness, and see if any other systems are not in operating order.

Thanks again!

Dan

[Karl Welhart]

Dan,

Just to follow-up on an earlier question you had regarding the Silverleaf.  It gets this information from basically the diagnostics side of the engine/transmission output. This data comes to the Silverleaf from the brain boxes and reconstructs that data into the information you see on the Silverleaf screen.  If the data appears to be correct on the screen then you can assume the connections to those data streams are good.  I think the wires that connect to the Silverleaf come directly from the diagnostic plug under the dash.

Good luck,

Karl

[Edward Buker]

Dan,

One other thought is that 35 amps is over 400W which means a lot of heat should be created somewhere. Although I have never tried it you might scan along the harness and around under the dash and the Silverleaf unit with an infrared gun and see if you get any indication of a local region of heat rise.

Later Ed

[Dan DeKorte]

Well, I decided to try to see if sitting overnight changed anything, and so I re-attached the wire in question to a spare breaker at CB30, and all was good & working. The silverleaf powered on and was receiving the data, everything seemed to work except I now have the ABS light on the dash lit up.  I decided to see if all of the switches worked, and all did except when I clicked the interconnect a couple times the wire in question started drawing current and popped the spare breaker, ABS light still on, silverleaf until went dead. Wait ten or so seconds, ready with the current draw amp meter, and when the breaker reset it showed drawing 37 amps. Argh, what a pain in the arse!  At this point I am going to abandon the project and wait until I can talk with a tech from BCS to see if they have any insight to this problem.  The infrared thermometer is a good idea, but I am not sure I can get a reading as fast as the breaker pops, might give it a shot later.

Thanks again for the replies!

Dan

[Edward Buker]

Dan,

What interconnect did you click when it started conducting current? You were connecting and disconnecting the Silverleaf I think which would imply that the connector may have a short or somehow the Silverleaf harness at the unit is shorting. I say that because it seems unlikely that any circuit or semiconductor within the Silverleaf can survive a 37amp draw and survive to live another day and this seems to reset and work again so I think the fault is wiring near that interconnect and not the electronics. Sometimes there is a relatively heavy duty diode to protect for reverse polarity which could be breaking down but with this amount of current I think it is unlikely that would survive and not be fried. If your meter has the capability of being a clamp on DC meter try clamping it on the wire at a point a couple of inches behind the interconnect that induced the problem and see if that location sees the high current if you can induce it again. If so the wiring harness is fine before that point and the problem is beyond that location.

I cannot remember if the ABS light comes on when you first turn on the ignition. If it does then you should be able to disconnect the 270 wire and see if you lose that light when you turn on the ignition implying that the ABS is also wired to 270 and could then be involved in the high current issue also.

Later Ed

[Dan DeKorte]

Ed, I was using the house and chassis interconnect switch located on the drivers switch panel next to the exhaust brake & heated mirrors.

The ABS light now stays on with or without the 270 wire connected to the breaker panel, and motor running or just the key on does not change any of the problems previously noted.

The silverleaf was disconnected at the back of the unit, and either connected or disconnected the problem still occurs, so I can rule out the silverleaf head unit as having a shorted wire inside or the power to it.  There has to be another relay/solenoid/diode/switch/etc that the 270 wire connects to supplying more that just the silverleaf.

I do have a clamp on amp meter and will test the wires at the interconnect switch and the big boy solenoid to see if we have a heavy draw.

It is over 95 degrees outside right now, so I am going to work on it again in the am.

Thank you to all who have been contributing!

[Joel Ashley]

Dan, I think Ed's idea still bears value regarding the connector to the Silverleaf.  Hooked up or not, the short could be between wires inside the plug at the end of the wires.  Not likely I reckon, but worth close examination.

The fact that the Boost switch popped the breaker should be a clue, and I think you will be on track in the morning.  The ignition switch is involved throughout these suspicious circuits, and is a known problem point, so I'd include a perusal of its connections as well.

Joel