Transmission Death

[Bruce Sieloff]

This is what $15K starts out as:
Should be a lovely picture of SynTrans and Coolant on the ground here.
We woke the coach from winter storage and did a short warmup run, about 40 miles from our house in Snohomish to Camping World in Burlington, WA. This was what greeted me when we came out.
The drippage coming from the cooling overflow tube is SynTran and Coolant. The tank was full to overflowing and badly swollen. A new BCS coolant tank is in the offing.
Apparently the radiator malfunctioned where the liquid to liquid heat exchange takes place within the radiator core and by the time I noticed it dripping on the ground, that was all she wrote for the Allison. And the Radiator, according to Freightliner.
Had the coach towed to Valley Freightliner in Mt Vernon, WA where I was given the bad news this morning, no solid figures yet but they want $10K up front for parts; $6500 for a new factory warranted Allison 4000.
 I told them I wanted a NO FAIL replacement, and we are having a replacement radiator being spec’ed by the custom radiator shop the Freightliner guys recommended. All Copper and first class was my request.
My wife received a call while I was at work requesting an up front $10K on the Visa card. I’m inclined to go for the Transmission but wait for the estimate on the radiator before ponying up the balance. I’m sure labor will be another $5000 which will include the coolant tank. They are talking 14 hours for the radiator replacement (seems a bit steep for a side radiator unless its two guys for the R&R) and 10 for the transmission.
Not having been through this before, what advice can you share to make this a successful outcome?
Upgrades, caveats, favorite three fingers of something brown?

[Keith Moffett]

Bruce
First let me say I really feel for you in this.  It's one of the scenarios that everyone fears.
We have paid good money for such awful advice I want to run this by you.
Before making any commitment on this I would seek confirmation as you have here but I would talk to Ken Carpenter or Sean at B. C. S. There are several people here which can help but that may take time.  Freightliner is good with truck systems but I have had them tell me they are often unfamiliar with the systems used on an R. V. So they would not be my final word on replacement of parts like a radiator or even transmission.
Good luck and again sorry for your situation.

Keith

[Lee Welbanks]

That's a pretty good price for a new 4K trans, I've seen them rebuilt for $6K as far as the rad, that will have to be custom built as I'm sure nobody have a factory one sitting on a shelf. Shop labor is shop labor, I don't think you want some cheapo shop preforming this work.

[Dennis Kitchens]

Valley Freightliner would be the last place I would take it to. Charged me 500.00 for a new fan belt replacement and heard similar stores from other folks. There is a semi repair shop just up from there in fact I think its the next lot but I can't remember the name of it.
 
Quality work is still out there without paying an arm and a leg.

[William Jordan]

Just had my radiator replaced in the last week and a half. BCS found my radiator leak after I pressed them when I was in for other service I didn't have or discovered after I bought other coach . I had to ask them did they look at it to hear" oh yes ... It's shot" quess they forgot to mention that part in the run down !  . I was quoted by Sean and Ken $9000 ( last one they did) to replace minimum. They said the labor would be probably close to 20 hours with the radiator somewhere north of 6000. Plus parts etc , I wasn't impressed , but that's another story
   I called around several places and got similar quotes Since the surge tank was also bad I called source engineering in Coburg about a surge tank and found they also did the radiators after some go around I went with them and ended up paying just under 7500 / copper brass/ all in parts and labor , new aluminum surge tank. and that took at least 16 hours which is what they billed me for.  evidently labor to get that radiator out and back in is a real pain in the ---.
 . I would suggest Peterson cat would be a better place than the Freightliner dealer the beaver is not on a Freightliner chassis so they are out of water on this I contacted peterson after source on another matter that I have discovered    and they told me they did many radiators on Monaco/beaver coaches and could be very competitive. Peterson is also in Washington
I have no idea on your transmission however I have heard over 10,000 to replace, parts labor and I think you're looking at 18 grand total for it all .. Hope all goes well for you I'm learning some hard lessons on mine and hope school gets out soon !
RS -4847R OEM radiator  was my part #

[Tim Bentley Co-Admin]

As little as 2% coolant or water in the transmission fluid and the transmission is gone.  Our Local Allison service center stated that 80% of the transmissions he replaces are due to a coolant leak.  You can read about my transmission failure and how it could have been prevented at the link below. 

The price they are quoting you sounds a  high.  The replacement I had done ran just a little over $10,000 and that included the rebuilt transmission a new trans cooler and labor.  The was done at an Allison factory service center in San Diego, and this is not a cheep place to get repairs done.  It only took a few days to have a factory rebuilt transmission shipped from Allison, they do have them in stock.
I know you do not always have a choice when you're stuck somewhere with a breakdown.   

http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,2178.msg16027.html#msg16027

[Bill Sprague]

The headquarters for Valley Freightliner is a few blocks from the condo and on the way to where I store the Beaver.  Every time I drive by, there are a few motorhomes in the service parking lot.   They are open 20 hours a day, seven days a week.  The owner also owned Gordon Trucking, but is "retiring".  Part of his retirement program is major funding of a brand new YMCA in Sumner.  Valley Freightliner is not a bad place at all!

My primary experience came when I was hearing an odd noise and stopped.  They diagnosed and replace the exhaust manifold and gasket for a fair price, did it quickly and left not a single spot of grease anywhere inside.  It took two days for the replacement exhaust manifold to show up from the east coast, so they offered a 50 amp outlet to keep the fridge running.  While the work was being done, the new truck sales/general manager stopped and asked about my experience with their service.  He explained that motorhome service policies had been put in place because they recognize we owners are a bit different than most truckers.  They "get it".

FWIW, Valley Freightliner has a big Allison sign next to the Cat and Cummins signs on the building.  Transynd is on the retail shelf inside the front door next to the engine oil. 

[Bruce Sieloff]

Thanks to all for the experience and commiseration. The shared experience here is one reason I keep paying $90 bucks a year to stay a BAC member. The other is the gentlemen who took time to contact me directly at work and relay his experience with a similar situation and suggest some options to save money and grief. (My apologies for not mentioning you by name, the factory is a noisy place and I could barely keep up my end of the conversation). I really appreciate the reaching out from someone who has traveled the same path.
The contact I am dealing with at Valley Freightliner is Jeff, a shop foreman and he has been very good about keeping me in the loop, especially when I insisted on a written estimate before we continue with the work. His estimate to date is $14K WITHOUT a new radiator, so it may be closer to $18K before the dust settles but I will go up and review the work order in person rather than rely on a phone conversation. I am insisting that the radiator be bulletproof and we did discuss a different system of trans cooling, like using a separate heat exchanger, but he feels that his radiator supplier, Kens, can build something that will be superior to the original and still use what he considers a better cooling technique, having the heat exchange for the transmission remain in the radiator core. Apparently the 2002-2003 beavers used the in-core technique and their aren't good options for another system. I told him I was NOT interested in something that would recreate the problem and he reassures me that his folks can build a radiator that will meet my specifications. Hard to know, I'm not a radiator specialist, just the sap paying the bills. I will put
Freightliner on the hook for the radiator, I don't care who their supplier is, I'm buying this from THEM.  I did insist on ELC coolant for the refill and TranSynd for the new transmission. I just spent $600 on a TranSynd flush and fill on the old tranny and did notice a bit cooler running. I woke up bolt upright at 2 AM and started writing my do-this list, including examination of all the hoses and connections, fan mounts, BCS Coolant tank and everything else I could think of. Must not have missed much because after an 8 point list I was able to go back to sleep. As mentioned, when the coolant hits the road you don't have a lot of options as to where you can go to get it fixed. There was a shop nearby mentioned, but it was important to me to have Freightliner cover the work and be able to find another dealer if anything went wrong. VFI Mt Vernon has seen MH as a viable extension of their business and seem to be trying to get it right. They are right next to Poulsbo RV and a big Michelin Tire shop so they are centrally located for the business. Word travels fast and failure to perform will have a faster trip than success. Another experience like this and I'm going to be dancing naked around the flames.
Speaking of success, we were towed by Dicks Towing about 20 miles from the truck stop where we parked the coach to VFI. For all the towing horror stories that have been shared, if you want a successful experience I cannot recommend Dicks enough. They showed up on time, with a full size Kenworth tow anything rig and a younger gentleman named Chad who is their MH tow guy and he did a superb job. I was worried about damage to the front and rear of the coach and Chad took time to do it right while he explained the process. We pulled the coach forward onto wood blocks to get clearance for the front fascia and the generator (as you know, Beavers sit LOW to the ground) and he used a humongous boom to ease the under the front axle, set some vertical extensions in place and get it to a nice safe ride height. It took more time to get the driveline out than anything else with lots of finagling the coach and believe me, he earned his pay. We stopped several times to check the load and it towed like a rock. We went over the truck scales with his rear axles rated at 52000 lbs, and with Behemoth on the back we rolled over at 51,900. Glad I drained the water tank! I give them 5 out 5 stars. And hope I never have to use them again.
We should have a solid estimate after the radiator shop gets the old radiator and scopes out a replacement cost.

[Keith Moffett]

Bruce and anyone wishing to comment.
I see Bruce that you just had the flush done and the change to Transynd.  With a radiator that is aged 11 years and the transmission cooler built into that radiator.  Also given that any dirt build up in the air gap between the radiators can further weaken the lower part of the radiator that cools the transmission.....
Is it possible that the thicker Transynd when it was cool didn't pass through the older cooler well and put more pressure on the radiator?
If we could see this as part of the problem then we could suggest rehabbing the radiator before converting to Transynd there bye preventing a ruined transmission.  At least for those of us who haven't changed over yet.

[Keith Moffett]

I was confusing in radiator tyranny cooler with the external variety.  The issue remains the same.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Bruce Sieloff]

Well this just keeps getting better. The latest call indicated that the charge air cooler had failed the spec test and was holding zero pressure after the specified amount of time instead of the leak down percentage that kept it healthy. So I have been getting limited boost. I'm not sure what good boost is, this being my first coach, but this has got to give me a bit more power and perhaps better mileage.
That is the silver lining. The flip side is they want $3000 for the part. The Radiator is $4300 and it's many times larger! I understand that life under pressure is tough, but $3K? The CAC was really unexpected. Apparently the folks they want to source the new radiator and CAC from are folks who supplied the original Beaver rads. He mentioned Radiator Specialties but Radiator Supply is the source I remember mentioned. Any ideas?Better suppliers?
The end estimate is jaw dropping. With a cooling system replacement, new transmission ready to go and an alignment (with tires at $675 a pop I want to know) we are looking a within spitting distance of $24K. I'm really feeling the pointy end of spear here and you know where it's placed. The bummer is that after all that I don't really gain anything I felt I didn't have before. It ran well before, It will run well again, but I still have all the other little projects that still need to be financed. The bottom line is that I should have the most reliable power train reassurance I can get short of a new turbo. Of course there are all the other lines and hoses that are 12 years old...
It is astounding how expensive this stuff is when you step up to the heavy truck class, and it doesn't seem to last much longer than a passenger car in spite of the vaunted "million mile" status.
I do feel that the mechanic is giving me good answers but how would I know? I feel woefully unprepared for this, no time to really research or understand the options so I can make an intelligent decision. I really hate going on a "trust me" basis. That is the territory honest men and con men tread alike.
We are going to meet on Tuesday in person (he doesn't know it yet) and go over each item in the estimate. He can point out what it is and why it takes so much labor to R&R. My son is a master tech for Toyota and he will go with me, but he admittedly doesn't have much experience with diesels. I am going to insist on a written warranty on the work and responsibility for the parts. I'm not doing this again.
I keep telling myself that I could have paid more for a coach that was a bit newer and still had the same issues, but it's not much consolation. I did build in some headroom for repairs in my mental calculations when I bought the beast, but we are getting close to the limit.  I'm hoping that when I get down in the sunshine on my lawn chair with a cool one in my hand watching someone else mow the lawn it will all be worth it.

[Tom and Pam Brown]

Detroit Radiator is a good Truck supplier of aftermarket radiators and sell metal expansion tanks.  I would be very trusting of a crated rebuilt transmission from Allison.  The pricing you have gotten seems a bit inflated.  With your unit being down can you move it to another repair facility if you find one?
Good luck on this situation and it would definitely check around for other options.

[Dennis Kitchens]

The name of the place I couldn't remember earlier is Motor Trucks. I think they are right next door. I would go talk to them and see what they can do for you. I bet they save you a lot of money for as good a quality as Freightliner in Mt Vernon. Here is the website.

http://www.motortrucksinc.com/

[William Jordan]

I feel your pain way too closely!! because as I posted before I just had my radiator replaced . I'm not sure who the supplier  source engineering used but my cost was 7400
In replacing the Radiator  ,they found that the engine had dust in the lines going to and from the CAC!!  evidently my CAC is still good but the person that owns this before me put a crap air filter on that wasn't sealed causing light dust in the air  lines to and from  The  turbo and engine  which if damaged are  big $$ like I havemt already spent LOL!
 the coach runs at full power and the engine is not burning oil and has plenty of power .   that's my good news ! according to Jim at source engineering, cat will want to tear down my engine$$$  ( it's at cat now) but he thinks I can get away with just cleaning it up putting a new filter on and thanking my stars that the engine wasn't damaged badly. I'll know soon as I'm heading for Texas in two weeks
This is also my second foray into big diesels ( I had a Winnebago journey for 2 years ) and I can tell you I don't like the expense!
 I bought the beaver because I thought I was buying a older quality coach from a quality dealer. ( I found nothing but glowing recommendations  about them ( BCS) and they definitely are " nice people". I was lulled some by that.   I should've insisted and paid  on a more thorough independent  inspection! MY bad . I missed the radiator leak as it wasn't showing .... The coach is too old for a warranty that I probably wouldn't have bought anyway,  I'm not that guy.
My take ...
You'd be surprised how large the CAC is ! It's  two thirds of the size of the radiator and below the CAC, ,one more thing to worry about ,  is the hydraulic oil cooler !  all three are like a sandwich. I've found The side radiator sure isn't cheaper to work on and has a more complicated fan ,that's hydraulic, to also worry about . It does give more access to the engine belts and accessories and not get as dirty as my rear rad Journey That's the good news in this  !
My experience with Freightliner in Portland on the journey was that they didn't know what they were doing.  they screwed several things up ( left coolant hoses loose etc  )I think the lowest exp tech was "sentenced"  to motor homes , they charged a lot of money and I wasn't happy at all. They  really didn't want to work on motorhomes and it was clear. Even though they are a " Oasis" dealer They fixed the leaking hose they caused after 2 hours waiting and told me good news! We won't charge you for the labor to do it ! REALLY!?  How generous!
BCS is knowledgable about Beaver systems and parts location but they are VERY $$ proud of it. The shop knew sales  had just sold me a coach with a bad radiator and wanted 9000 to fix it, after i had just spent 3 grand on basic service and coach leak fixes.  (I had it fixed for 7400 elsewhere ) As I said my fault but ..... It still leaves a bad taste. We love the coach but not these expensive mechanical issues that keep coming up that are frustrating mostly because service , good service , is so hard to find on these
So where does one go ? right now I'm at Peterson Cat And hoping they will not be in the same category.i've heard good things about them but as I said before I've heard good things about others and haven't had good experiences. I've heard a good rule that was told to me is to save 10% out for repairs on a new to you ( used) coach. I did and I'm there. I hope your problems stop where they are as unfortunately I find one problem it seems to point out another so far. :-(
I only can say your not alone..
Good luck , here's hoping we can both be in a lawn chair drinking a Soda in the sunshine with all the problems behind us !

[Larry Fisk]

Just an FYI, you might have them check the radiator cooling fan motor bracket. Mine failed and took out my radiator and CAC. I received another bracket and cooling fan from BCS to complete the repair after the CAC and radiator were re-cored and installed. The cooling fan bracket that BCS sold me was junk. It was failing again within 2000 miles and had already damaged my cooling fan beyond reuse. The bracket was made by radiator supply house located in Oregon. I had to have BCS send me a second new cooling fan (my expense) and had to have a CAT shop with its own fabrication shop build me a bullet proof bracket. Over 17,000 dollars later I now have a great system. You may want to have your bracket inspected before you re-install it. It could prevent a second failure. All this is documented on the forum with photos.
Larry Fisk