Author Topic: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly  (Read 12628 times)

Dick Simonis

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C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« on: August 17, 2015, 09:46:59 PM »
I've been reading all the posts on overheating and etc trying to determine which, if any, relate to my issue.  First, it's not even clear in my own mind if I even have and issue but the temps are quite a bit higher than I saw in my 425 PT.

This is my first real trip in this coach so I'm not sure what to expect but I have to think that the same engine putting our 505 HP and pushing 43K vs 34K would run hotter if it has the same cooling package as the 425 HP version.

Here are the symptoms:

Hwy operation any ambient temp steady at 186
Moderate grades temp rises to 200 or so and drops quickly when back level
Step grades temp rises to 215 and even 217 causing the check engine light to flash. (~100 F ambient)
Downshifting to 4th or even 3rd immediately brings the temp back down to the 190 to 205 or so range.
Back on level ground all is well.

All readings are from the Silverleaf but I didn't think to check tranny temps.

The coolant is ELC base on it being red but the coolant filter has not yet been removed (high on my list)
Expansion tank has been changed to the BCS metal unit.

So, first question do I even have an issue to be concerned about?

Than of course, if I have an issue which are the most likely causes.

Thanks for any input.

Dick

Lee Welbanks

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 11:40:28 PM »
Those temps look to high, at around 200 do you hear the fan crank up to high speed or does it seem to run on slow speed all the time? On my C13 525 I can actually tell when the fan goes to high speed. I have just come out of Canadian Rockies with their 8 and 9% grades and it never hit 200. I stopped once at the top of a grade and the fan was still in hi speed and it will suck your hat off. If it was your thermostat stuck open, your temp would keep going down past 186.

Steve Huber Co-Admin

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2015, 03:03:22 AM »
Dick,
Your results sound normal if you are not downshifting soon enough on grades. I have same engine and would get similar results if I did not downshift on  grades. I drop out of economy mode and normally drop to 5th at about 194 and 4th at about 199. If temp still increases I go to 3rd. Speed isn't important. Temperature is. I try to get RPMs around 1800-2000 when climbing to ensure coolant is being circulated quickly and fan is running at max. On flats I run about 186 in 6th and economy mode. Some hills will still drive temps up regardless. Climbing south on I17 out of Verde Valley in summer will drive temps to ~215 even in 3rd by the time you crest the grade
Steve
Steve
Coachless
2015- 6/24  07 Contessa Bayshore C9,  400 hp
2013-2015: 00 Marquis Tourmaline, C12, 425 hp
2005-2013: 01 Contessa Naples, 3126B, 330 hp

Dave Atherton

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2015, 05:16:33 AM »
Dick,is this is the first shake down trip with this motorhome ? It sounds like engine will cool down real fast.
First question what is your intake air temp under load and your boost pressure under load. in agreement with Steve,  do not think you are having a problem but the intake temp along with the boost pressure will help
answer the heat climb question asked. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Edward Buker

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 07:21:30 AM »
Dick,

Those temps seem a little high and given that you have a check engine light coming on this heat level must be a little out of normal range. That warning may store an event and if it does you should be able to have the past events read out and see if this is something new or this has had a frequency of occurrence in the past. The 505HP pushes more fuel under load then the 425HP version and probably has a little higher boost pressure. That means more heat generated by the engine and you are pushing more weight which means slower speed and more climb time on grade which means more heat as a result. I have the 505HP version but I weigh 36K loaded compared to 43k or more. The extra weight and tag rolling resistance adds up. I also tow a 3500lb car which is lighter then bigger toads.

205 degrees on a climb out of economy mode with managing shifting points to keep RPMs up above the 1600RPM range would be about my maximum if I remember right. Ambient temp plays a role here so it is hard to be sure we are comparing apples to apples because your ambient was pretty high. Steve's numbers seem a little high to me also.

I would assume that your radiator is clean and coolant toped off. If you watch intake manifold temp, which is sensitive to fan speed you should see that when you first start out on the road the intake temp will rise pretty high like to the 170s until the fan turns on at 188 to 192 degrees coolant temp. Once that fan kicks on, it stays on, and the intake temp should drop rapidly and stay well controlled which helps you to know that the fan is keeping rpms up and staying on. I bring this up as another way to understand if your fan cooling system is acting normally, that is the fan coming on between those temp set points and then the fan staying on.

Dick I do not think given the coach load differences that we are that far apart temp wise, you might try and manage RPMs better and if that prevents future codes then you must be in spec and that is close enough. If you continue to get codes then I would see what could be done.

Later Ed

Dick Simonis

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 02:39:41 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

I didn't think about checking inlet temp and boost pressure but will do so on my next trip when we leave Mallard Creek.  I wouldn't expect to see temp around 100 again until we get back to AZ.  I'm not sure I completely understand the inlet temp relationship but will mull it over til the light comes on.

There was a code thrown for the overheat at 217 when the light was blinking.  It happened twice on the trip north but only one code is in history....perhaps non-critical events are overwritten not stored?

Regarding the fan, can it be tested for proper operation while sitting still?  Is this something BCS can do?  I keep thinking about this mysterious "wax valve".

Fred Brooks

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 04:08:30 PM »
           Hi Dick,

   Here is my recent experience just 2 days ago while returning my 2 grandsons back to Palm Desert California just west of Indio. I left Phoenix at 2:00 pm and the outside temperature was 117 degrees and think the asphalt was probably around 155 degrees. My coach normally runs 188 to 190 degrees at an average temp outside. I watched my temps climb and level off at 205 after 15 minutes at 65 mph. Out of curiosity, I pulled over and raised my rear engine door and left it open. I proceeded on I-10 headed west and watched my temp go from 205 down to 194 and level off and stay there. My rear engine door only has 2 oval openings and noticed that the newer Marquis's have 4 oval slots. Not really sure if I have an issue because who in there right mind takes a road trip at 117 degrees outside.
      When it comes to hill climbing, I was advised 30 years ago from a trucker on what works for big rigs. I never use Mode on with the transmission because of the slow response of the shift down. You should manage the engine speed and keep manually shifting it down and keep it close to the "sweet spot" of 1800 rpm to get max performance and water pump speed and not rely on the transmission to keep you in the right gear. Once you lose it on a hill it is hard to get back and it is no fun stuck behind an 18 wheeler. "If you ain't the Lead Dog, the view never changes.
      I believe your Marquis is close to normal and you miss your old "Hot Rod PT performance. Smile at Pat and enjoy the ride. See you this fall and by the way my coach is blowing hot air out under the patio and sure is annoying. Regards, Fred
Fred & Cindy Brooks
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C-12 Wild Cat (U of A)
2014 Honda CRV
Proverbs 3: 5 & 6

Edward Buker

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 04:59:21 PM »
Dick,

The amount of throttle regulates the amount of fuel being injected which intern regulates the torque and HP that the engine is producing. As the engine output goes up the exhaust pressure goes up along with the exhaust temperature that the turbo is seeing. As the turbo spins up, boost pressure rises, and the hot turbo preheats the air from the air intake and it sends it through the intercooler which is the outermost large cooler device in your side radiator stack.

How well that device cools the intake air, which is the gauge we can measure on the Silverleaf, is a function of the airflow that the fan is moving through the intercooler. It is more variable in temperature and more sensitive to air flow then the radiator so it can tell you more about the fan performance, like what temp the fan turns on, does it stay on, is the engine rpm high enough to provide good enough fan speed air flow to keep the intake air temp from rising too much.

There are no absolute values here, it is monitoring your coach to see if systems are operating as they should. I know on mine that the fan comes on at a coolant temp of 188 to 192 degrees, I know the temp of the intake air will rise into the 160s to 170s until the fan comes on and then pretty rapidly drop to about 20 degrees above ambient for normal driving, I know for summer driving that the fan never turns off, once on.

You will get a slow rise in intake air temp with engine output during climbs but it should be consistent and controlled if the fan is pulling large volumes of air through the intercooler as is should. So lets say your engine is overheating but the intake temperature is behaving and acting as it normally has in the past. That would mean fan air flow is good and maybe look towards poor coolant flow issues like a sticking thermostat or a plugged or dirty radiator core. How these two temperatures are acting, coolant and intake air, can tell you a little more about the fan performance vs coolant flow performance, than just looking at the coolant temps alone.

The wax valve performance is a mystery to all of us. Hard to even rationalize what the internals of a wax valve would even look like....

What I have concluded from my intake air temp performance is that my wax valve has fully shut down my fan completely until it turns on, and once on, it seems to stay fully on all the time in my summer travels. I have stopped during warm up before reaching the 188 degree coolant temp and the found that the fan was absolutely still which is consistent with the rising air intake temps. I have stopped after driving awhile and reaching 188 degrees with the coolant temp now around 180 degrees while stopped, and even at idle, the fan was spinning at a very high speed blur which is also consistent with the air intake temp performance. I believe that we think of the wax valve as a real regulation analog type device varying fan hydraulic flow like an engine thermostat varies coolant flow but from what I have reasoned, it seems more like a digital device, either full on or full off. I think the thermal mass of the coolant which contains the sensor that turns on the hydraulic wax valve is such that once it reaches temp it does not ever reverse itself while driving in summer temps. The engine thermostat keeps that coolant above 180 degrees and that seems to keep the wax valve fully open. What this means to me is that we probably have fewer real issues caused by wax valves then are imagined by mechanics trying to sort out over heating issues.

This holds true for my summer traveling temps of 60s to 100degrees, not sure about winter temps. Hope this helps give you a little clearer picture.

Later Ed
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 09:29:18 PM by Edward Buker »

Dave Atherton

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 07:07:07 PM »
Dick when will you return back to Az. We can meet up and I can put My Cat ET on your engine and
Find out if you have any problems. Readings Ed's post he has done a very excellent job of explaining
what is going on. One might want to touch future on are you again, any coolant loss and is the little hose
by radiator cap or at surge tank wet it seeing steam coming coming out. If answer is no will pretty
much remove engine heating problem and possible located with a fault sending unit.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat mechanic

Edward Buker

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 11:17:54 PM »
Dick,

I found this info about the wax valve and it would appear that the last three digits of the PN are the turn on temp. This was from an Alpine Forum so I do not imply that these PNs are exactly correct for our coaches but these were common shared valves in the RV industry in this era.

For mine I assume it is 190 degrees based on the intake air temp response that I get to the fan turning on. It looks like there is a range of 12-15 degrees between "on" and "full on" based on the design literature. So if yours comes on at 190 then 205 degrees would be full on with max cooling. There are higher turn on temp models, so if you are getting higher temps then expected, then knowing your fan turn on temp is a good place to start looking. Certainly with this info 190 to 205 is a normal range of expected temps. If your turn on temp was 200 then 200 to 215 would be considered a normal range given max cooling does not come on until the 215 range.

Sauer's docs say the wax valve goes from min to max over "12-15°F. This eliminates sudden changes in speed that would cause dramatic changes in noise levels and place high transient stress on drive components. Without modulation, as the fan 'cut in' occurs with engine at maximum speed, the fan would accelerate almost instantly from rest to perhaps 3000 RPM. Such high acceleration requires proportionally high driving torque and makes the achievement of reliable long term operation more difficult." so the mfgr shows a 3° variation. My guess regarding some vs. no RPMs on cold start is that the variation implies the end points are not hard stops, or else the wax varies over time as it wears from repeated expansion/cooling.

 I'll be posting the fan motor technical info to the Tech Library shortly. I also received recently a Chassis Data Card from an 01 model 34 feeter. It shows a fan motor from Sauer-Sundstrand part# B5511-1143-170 and a fan motor thermovalve part# B5531-09857-190 (which matches the above post w/wax valve part#). That's the 199° cut-in unit previously discussed. While I'm naming names, the Sauer-Sundstrand hydraulic pump (shaft-driven off the forward end of the engine's air compressor) is part# B5501-35765-160-160. Since it appears the wax valve model has changed little over the years, the fan motor & pump numbers should also be recognizable to hydraulics vendors worth dealing with if need arises.

The original part numbers (Saur-Sundstrand era) were:
 B5531-09856-ETC 194°F
 B5531-09857-ETC 199°F
 B5531-09858-ETC 205°F
 B5531-09859-ETC 212°F
 The temp chosen was (is) to match the begin-control-fan speed setting desired. The range of the valve is 12° from min to max fan speed. The valve setting may not match engine temp exactly since the valve placement isn't on the engine but usually in the coolant stream. I believe the WRV placement is on the coolant input to the radiator to get as close to in-engine coolant temp as possible. Not sure what exact degree setting that would be for best operation. The "ETC" gets filled in w/the pressure level in units of BAR, from 30-210 BAR (435 to 3000 psi) in increments of 5 BAR (72.5psi). Hax's part# in post#6 would seem to indicate 190 BAR or 2755 psi.

 Just my $.02- the 9857 valve opening at 199° seems about right to me. Full fan @ 213 in the coolant pipe to radiator sounds like the ball park.
 
[/i][/b]__________________

Later Ed

Dick Simonis

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2015, 03:17:50 PM »
Thanks for all the info, I've been reading the responses and digesting all the information...Ed thanks for the research on the "Wax Valve" that should help a lot of us.

I reckon for the short term I'm going to believe that the temps are normal for running in high ambient temp conditions.  When we leave Lebanon next month I will reconfigure the Silver leaf so as to easily monitor the key parameters and see what happens.  At least the temp should be more normal running through Montana and Idaho.

Dave, where in AZ will you be, might like to take you up on your offer.

Dick and Pat

Dave Atherton

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2015, 08:10:35 PM »
Dick , we live in Quartzsite right on 95 south at last light on the left as your facing south. My location is
well marked with lots of flags and big sign on little blg. we are going to be at rally in Branson in Sept.
If you plan to attend the Beaver Quartzsite rally you will go right past our place. ET readout along
with print out will give you a complete history of your engine along any problems or codes.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Doug Allman

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Re: C-12 Temp Rising Quickly
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2015, 07:25:43 PM »
Dick, 2004 Marquis C-12. I will second what Steve Huber indicates.
It is great to run along the flat freeway with the econ mode on but when it comes to grades you have to change your thought process totally or you end up sitting along the road. I actually went thru exactly what you are expierencing and found that if I shifted myself I could almost always keep temp range in the low 190's even on long climbs.
On our previous 91 Contessa with a 3116 I could do the same but it did not work as well as the C-12 does.

You do need to look at the posts regarding the antifreeze fliter/lines if you have this arrangement.