Author Topic: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power  (Read 23440 times)

Edward Buker

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2016, 01:21:31 PM »
Stan,

Wow, this is like the Holy Grail of RV electrical problems.... Stan, you are doing a very good job of providing information and experimental results that we can go on.

What we know...

We know that there is only one condition that induces the fail, generator running, generator powering the coach AC wise (transfer switch closed using generator side), main slide switch activated with 12V and slide moving.

We know that the slide 12V side has no interruptions and runs well electrically and mechanically on battery/inverter not inducing any abnormally high 12V loads.

We know that the generator and transfer switch work well and can handle the load of two ACs, so having the normal slide 12V load added to any inverter charging load should not cause any overload current issue to the generator.

I think we know that the slide stopping issue is AC load induced with a 60 amp (or more) overcurrent when running just the generator. I think this overcurrent is also causing the inverter charger to shut down. This piece is a bit puzzling in that the batteries will run the slide slowly without the inverter normally, so somehow the DC side seems affected, I think pulled down with lower then 12v output stopping the slide. At the same time the solar charger DC voltage seems to get wonky during the slide movement activation/stoppage. That voltage may be seen on the output side of the solar charger but may arrive at that point from the chassis side of the wiring.

If we go on the physical movement of the slide inducing the fail (short or lose connection maybe) and not a load issue, as Gerald and Steve proposed, then what is the movement link? Stan, where is your generator located on your coach and is there any generator AC cable movement when the slide moves? Is there any AC wire/cable being pinched or crimped by the slide movement? This is a very good possibility with physical movement.

Either with movement or without AC wire movement, can you, with all power off, remove the cover where the AC wiring goes into the genset and check those connections into the terminal block from the genset side and the coach side for tightness, corrosion, or shorting. Due to generator vibration these terminal block screws can loosen and the copper wire can crush some with age being a soft metal and leave the connection less mechanically secure. Just moderate pressure on these screws, do not "crank them down". Then follow that AC wire from the generator and the other end should have wire nut connections in a metal box that also needs to be verified as tight corrosion free and the wire nuts should be taped or retaped when done checking. While looking there is usually a metal screw clamp to hold the AC wires, make sure that has not been clamped so tight that the Ac wire insulation is compromised at the clamp. My thinking was that if the genset can run two AC units then the AC wire connections were in pretty good shape but that is true for just the load and neutral legs.

Perhaps a loose ground from the genset end could allow the chassis and frame to "float" voltage wise causing the charger to erroneously kick in pulling major current from the batteries and that kills the slide movement. Check both the generator AC ground wire and the DC ground wire for good connections and also the ground and neutral wires at the transfer switch (along with the other+sides) for solid connections. If the voltage from the charger spikes up due to the ground reference voltage moving, the batteries are a very low impedance and can absorb or provide a lot of current which may be where the 60 amp 120V AC load is going. I cannot think of another place that current might go without burning something up or ruining what is already a loose connection. The slide coming to a stop on the DC side, which should be independent of the AC side, needs to be explained with a cause as part of this problem.

Stan, I read your post last night but decided to sleep on it....this problem is really a puzzle. If there is no AC cable movement with the slide movement, due to where things are mounted, then we are probably on the right path with some ground or neutral connection issue, given that the Alladin data has both the AC (current) and DC side (voltage) affected.

Checking the connections discussed is not wasted time even if you find them tight. Last summer I had one of the + side generator output wires come loose and we lost one AC output leg in the coach due to generator vibration and a partially stripped terminal block screw being over tightened at some prior point in the coaches life. Hope this helps.

Later Ed
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 01:43:37 PM by Edward Buker »

Stan Simpson

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2016, 02:55:07 PM »
We know that there is only one condition that induces the fail, generator running, generator powering the coach AC wise (transfer switch closed using generator side), main slide switch activated with 12V and slide moving.

One correction, Ed. Main slide switch activated with the  both or one AC off produces the same symptoms.

Thanks for the wonderful help. I have called 'Bob the Electrician".

Stan
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Edward Buker

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2016, 03:26:33 PM »
Stan,

Not sure how wonderful our help is at this point.... It is sometimes pretty hard to imagine from a distance what is wrong without some hands on time...this is one of those times. Maybe between, Jerry, Gerald, Steve, and my inputs we have gotten lucky sorting out what might be the root cause and it will help Bob. Good luck with Bob's troubleshooting, we will all be curious what he finds...

Later Ed

Stan Simpson

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2016, 04:06:11 PM »
I had my generator serviced in June in preparation for our trip starting next week. I called them and suggested that when they had the genset out on the slide out for service, they may have crimped a wire or cable or something. They have asked me to bring it in today.
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Edward Buker

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2016, 06:39:35 PM »
Interesting I wonder if they crossed a wire like a neutral and ground? Have them check..

Later Ed

Stan Simpson

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2016, 09:46:46 PM »
I feel pretty sheepish making this post, but it's only fair to everyone here who tired to help.

Took the coach to my service center today, as they requested, and they diagnosed the problem in minutes after watching me run through the issues putting slides out and in; and after I told them, that today moving the coach for the first time from my storage since I had it in for service last, the "wait to travel" light on the dash was on, and there was no power to the HWH leveling system. (I have air leveling only). The tech said, "this is strictly a 12V issue. Either a corroded or loose connection with the batteries would be my first guess." We opened the battery bay, and he pointed out 4 swollen house batteries, indicating they were not getting a charge or holding one. He said the 14.4V I was showing on the inverter and the Aladdin were from the plug in, not from the batteries. Arranged for 4 new house batteries, and we should be good to go. The last time I checked them was when we left Chattanooga on the way home last March. (they were on my to-do list before leaving this time. I just didn't think of them) They were new when we bought the coach, 4-1/2 years ago, and I'm guessing the dealer used inexpensive as he could find.

Lesson learned. Thanks for all of everyone's patience and help.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 09:49:38 PM by Stan Simpson »
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Edward Buker

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2016, 11:12:14 PM »
Stan,

Glad it was something simple and it is getting fixed. I thought about the batteries but could not rationalize all the symptoms being a battery issue. No need to feel sheepish, we all learn together.

Later Ed

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2016, 11:48:22 PM »
Stan,
Glad they found something.

Ed,
Not sure I completely understand how this fits the symptoms. The house batteries could source enough current to run the slides when no charger or inverter/charger was connected but with generator connected,  they sinked 60amps+  when trying to drive the slides and were unable to source the needed slide current. Did the "unlimited" current source from the generator effectively swamp the batteries while the inverter/charger was unable to supply enough current to swamp them?
Steve
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Edward Buker

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2016, 12:13:01 AM »
Steve,

I think the batteries when just sitting on charge, they would absorb some current, but with little ability to generate reserve capacity I would guess. Just enough to run the slide. Stan said it ran but was slow.

I think when you started the generator, that pulled current from the limited capacity battery bank, and then when the charger is online with both bad batteries sinking some current and then when you add the slide load it dragged the 12v battery voltage low enough to cause things to shut down. One or more 12V batteries with a shorted cell are a huge current sink, due to the low impedance, rather then provide a reserve current with capacity.

There may be more to this story before it is over but starting with good batteries is a prerequisite to sorting what may be next. That is the best I have and it still may not be an answer for all the symptoms.

Later Ed

Stan Simpson

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2016, 02:44:21 AM »
It was the 6V house batteries that are bad. There are 4 of them.
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Jerry Emert

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2016, 03:34:03 AM »
Stan, glad to see that you have found a problem.  It sure sounds like you were due for batteries!  Like Ed, I'm not sure you have found the final solution to your issue.  Stranger things have happened though.   My fingers are crossed for you!!
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LaMonte Monnell

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2016, 09:12:38 PM »
Battery issues cause weird occurrences. I recently replaced the 4 house batteries and the two chassis batteries at the same time. The 4 house were swelled and using a ton of water, and the chassis were not kept up with while in a shop for 3 1/2 months. Money I guess well spent, charging good now and using no water at all.
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Stan Simpson

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power Update
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2016, 05:33:07 PM »
Update:

This is going to turn out to be an expensive lesson in watching condition of house batteries.

As I mentioned, moving the coach for the first time since this 12V problem occurred, I saw the "wait to travel" light on the dash, and the keypad for the HWH air leveling didn't work.

My service center replaced the house batteries and all is well with the 12V system again...except...the surges of amps to 60+ apparently fried the control panel for the HWH. My service center says the cost for a new one is $1900.00. I have calls in to BCS and NW RV Surplus to see what their prices are, if any.

If anyone has a part # for it, so I can do my own research, that would be helpful. Or if you know of a different source. Would it do me any good to call HWH direct?

Thanks.
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Gerald Farris

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2016, 12:03:24 AM »
Stan,
Are you sure that the control wire to your HWH panel did not just come loose, either completely or partially? The are well known for that happening.

If you want help in troubleshooting the system, call HWH technical support. They are very helpful, but be patient because you will usually have to leave your number, and they call you back in from a few hours to a day or so.

Gerald 
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Stan Simpson

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Re: Confused about Inverter/Shore Power
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2016, 02:17:15 AM »
Stan,
Are you sure that the control wire to your HWH panel did not just come loose, either completely or partially? The are well known for that happening.

If you want help in troubleshooting the system, call HWH technical support. They are very helpful, but be patient because you will usually have to leave your number, and they call you back in from a few hours to a day or so.

Gerald

Gerald,

I went to the coach today and took the panel (the one with the pads you touch for leveling) off. I wanted to get a part # to try to source a new one. A picture of the back of it is below. I checked the 5 pin connector, and it was seated good. I made sure I seated it solid when I put it back.  Is there a chance that its the HWH box that's in the electrical bay? Or a relay was blown instead of the board?
Stan Simpson & Becky Glover & Moe the cat
2005 Monterey Laguna IV
C9 400 Cat
Honda CRV toad