Shore power and batteries

[Sherry Klumpp]

Hi All,

  I'm getting conflicting information, and I need some expert advice please!!

  Most have told me to leave the "coach power" button in the on position and plug into shore power when the 2005 Beaver Monterey is stored.  The Xantrex system is supposed to use the shore power to keep the batteries charged.  I recently moved the motorhome to a storage facility that only has a 15 amp shore supply.  I've tripped their breaker a couple of times, but I don't know what I did for that to happen. 

  A mobile technician told me to turn off Coach power and turn off both knobs to the batteries to keep them from being drained when storing.  She said that if I didn't turn off the batteries, I would drain them even if plugged into 15 amp shore power. 

  The motorhome was put in storage on Sunday.  Coach power was left on.  Shore power 15 amp was working based on power surge indicator.  When I entered the motorhome, the first thing I did was turn on the generator so that I could turn on the A/Cs.  I know I can't run the A/Cs on 15 amps.  I tripped a breaker when I turned on the generator.  Why did this happen? 

  I used the Aladdin to look at house battery status after we restored power through the fuse.  Now I don't recall the numbers, but I thought the batteries were still charged. 

  Are there limitations due to the 15 amp shore supply?  Should I turn off the battery switches when stored and plugged into 15 amps?  I'm confused.

Thank you!!

Sherry

[Steve Huber]

Sherry,
Welcome to the world of Beavers!
15A service will keep your batteries charged and run the lights when you enter the coach, but that's about it. There should be no reason to turn off coach power (with the front dash switch). Most of us recommend not using it ("salesman switch") as the relay it controls has a habit of failing and then you have no way of getting 12v to the coach interior unless you replace or jumper the relay. Be sure that you have turned off any other 12V draws  in the coach when storing it (refrigerator, fantastic fans, water heater, etc). Alternately (and preferably IMHO) you can turn off   the battery disconnect switches off (House and Chassis) at the rear of the coach. This will disconnect 12v power from everything except a few vital systems such as the engine ECU and the battery charger.
I'm not sure why a breaker trips when you start the generator. Is this the storage facility's breaker? The transfer switch in the coach is designed to sense when the generator is running and is designed to select the generator over shore power when the generator is running. Possibly  your transfer switch is acting up.
Steve

[Sherry Klumpp]

Steve,

  thanks so much for the welcome and the information  !

  I make sure everything is turned off when storing and plugging into 15 amp shore power.  I looked at the surge protector, and all three lights were green, which means the coach is getting electric; so I didn't trip the facility breaker when I plugged into their shore power.  The Aladdin is malfunctioning and has been showing "no AC" even when I'm getting power from shore or generator.  So I can't use the Aladdin to check it.  There is a black switch just behind the drop-down table near the kitchen sink.  If I turn that on, lights come on.  Those are supposed to be electric only.  I don't normally use those, but I have used them to check whether I'm getting shore power or not. 

  The facility breaker has been tripped twice- both times that I've returned to the new facility.  I don't know when the facility breaker trips.  The first time the facility power was tripped, I thought it might have been because I had turned on the refrigerator two days earlier to cool before taking it out on the road.  But the shore power wasn't the first thing I checked when I went back to the facility.  I heard a beep when I entered the coach, and it was the Norcold refrigerator.  Seems the control panel is bad.  I hadn't started the generator, but the facility breaker was tripped.  I did turn on the generator, and everything but the refrigerator started to work.  So I don't know the facility breaker tripped...

  The second time, both the facility's breaker and a main power breaker in the coach (everything in the coach shut down) were thrown when I turned on the generator.  Again, I didn't check the facility's breaker first- so I don't know when that tripped.  The coach power button was in the "on" position when this happened. 

  Someone at the dealership realized the coach power button wasn't shutting off and they "worked on it".  The mechanic was looking for fuses or something to replace. but later, the owner said it was because a cable was plugged into the wrong place.  One person said "don't touch the coach power button" (the dealer), as did the previous and only other owner, and another person (employee) thought it should be turned off.  Then the mobile technician turned it off saying "if you leave the coach power button on, it will drain the batteries" and she said to always turn it off when I left the coach in storage.  She also turned off both battery disconnect switches in the rear of the coach. Too many question marks on more than one front...

  So am I correct in thinking that leaving the "coach power" button in the on position while stored and plugged into 15 amp electric will keep batteries charged?  The previous owner told me that the Xantrex uses the shore power to charge the batteries.  Is that correct?  Or am I misunderstanding how this works?  Does the 15 amp shore power only supply sufficient power to the coach so as not to drain the batteries?

  Sorry, I'm very confused.  Different things said and done at different times, and now I don't know what is going on.  The second time I returned to the coach, the first thing I did was turn on the generator, and that's when the main power switch in the coach was tripped.  I don't know if it was the 30 or 50 amp fuse.  I want to say it was the 50 amp.

  There may be a problem with that switch after the mechanic at the dealership "worked on it".  I don't know...

  Is there something I can do to test/check it?

  Can I "pre-cool" the refrigerator on 15 amp?

  Thanks for your time and patience!!

Sherry

[Steve Huber]

“There is a black switch just behind the drop-down table near the kitchen sink.  If I turn that on, lights come on.  Those are supposed to be electric only.  I don't normally use those, but I have used them to check whether I'm getting shore power or not.”
Not sure what this switch is but most lights run on 12v DC so I don’t think this is a good indicator of shore power. The inverter (Xantrex) control panel should have a shore power or AC IN indicator.


“The second time, both the facility's breaker and a main power breaker in the coach (everything in the coach shut down) were thrown when I turned on the generator.  Again, I didn't check the facility's breaker first- so I don't know when that tripped.  The coach power button was in the "on" position when this happened.”
Did coach main breaker trip when generator was turned on or was it already tripped?  The coach power button controls DC voltage (12V) and has no direct effect on AC voltage. The main breaker in the coach is for AC voltage so status of power button should not matter.

When leaving coach in storage, leave coach power button on. Turn off both house and chassis battery disconnect switches in rear of coach. This will allow charging of batteries.


“So am I correct in thinking that leaving the "coach power" button in the on position while stored and plugged into 15 amp electric will keep batteries charged?” Yes 

“The previous owner told me that the Xantrex uses the shore power to charge the batteries.  Is that correct?” Yes
“Does the 15 amp shore power only supply sufficient power to the coach so as not to drain the batteries?” Basically Yes.


“There may be a problem with that switch after the mechanic at the dealership "worked on it".  I don't know... “
Tech’s work on coach power switch should not affect AC problem you are having with breakers tripping.
“ Is there something I can do to test/check it?”   If switch kills DC power when pushed and re-applies it when pushed again, it’s working. Use ceiling lights as an indicator as they are 12V.

  “Can I "pre-cool" the refrigerator on 15 amp?” I think so, especially if batteries are fully charged.. The fridge draws about 6A when running on AC. The battery charger could also be drawing current. You said that the control board for the fridge is bad. It could be the source of your problems if you haven’t had it turned off completely during storage. Consider unplugging it when in storage. The plug is accessible by removing the access panel on the outside of the coach behind the fridge. 
You could precool it using propane but then you’ll need to turn on the house batteries as it also requires 12vDC. However, I wouldn’t run the propane inside an unattended facility, especially with a bad control board in the unit.

[Joel Ashley]

I can see your confusion, and am not adept enough to postulate the genset's penchant for tripping breakers, other than some transfer switch issue.  But the transfer switch should automatically sense the genset's running and select over to its power;  being plugged into facility power concurrently should make no difference.

How long and how big is your cord from the facility's outlet?  The longer and smaller the cord, the more the voltage drop, not a particularly system-friendly situation.  Less expensive 30/15 adapter plugs, and even fancier ones, can burn up as can cord fittings... a fire hazard.  Where I must, I use no more than 50 ft of #12 cord (25ft preferred) and higher grade adapters, and hopefully a 20 amp source.  Only the minimum onboard devices are used, but a fridge should normally be okay.  Is your HydroHot electric side off?  The inverter's charger may initially bulk charge when first plugged in, but if you've just came off the road it shouldn't.

As to the doggone Coach Power (aka Salesman's) switch, it or its solenoid in the compartment over your batteries can wear from overuse.  Where Beavers were originally made, perhaps even yours, in Bend, and at Beaver Coach Service across the street, they would tell you adamantly to leave that's switch ON.  To avoid your forgetting or someone else switching it off, you could put tape over it, securing it in the ON position however temporarily.  Some even jumper the switch connections behind it, or jumper the rear solenoid's posts so inadvertently turning the switch off at the entry door doesn't actually do anything but put wear on it.

Joel

[Sherry Klumpp]

I can see your confusion, and am not adept enough to postulate the genset's penchant for tripping breakers, other than some transfer switch issue.  But the transfer switch should automatically sense the genset's running and select over to its power;  being plugged into facility power concurrently should make no difference..
Where is the transfer switch?  It's not the same as the coach power switch, is it?  Yikes- I have a lot to learn!!

How long and how big is your cord from the facility's outlet?  The longer and smaller the cord, the more the voltage drop, not a particularly system-friendly situation.  Less expensive 30/15 adapter plugs, and even fancier ones, can burn up as can cord fittings... a fire hazard.  Where I must, I use no more than 50 ft of #12 cord (25ft preferred) and higher grade adapters, and hopefully a 20 amp source.  Only the minimum onboard devices are used, but a fridge should normally be okay.  Is your HydroHot electric side off?  The inverter's charger may initially bulk charge when first plugged in, but if you've just came off the road it shouldn't..
I don't know the exact dimensions of the cord, but it's got to be less than 25 feet and looks close to 1/2" in diameter.  The Hydrohot went bad and was the reason the coach was sold.  The Hydrohot was replaced with an Atwood which uses propane and electric.  Electric was definitely off.  I was camping with a couple, and the husband is RV savvy.  He showed me a number of things and made sure everything was off before we left.
  The Atwood was mounted such that I can't open the larger door surrounding where the hot water control panel is located.  The people at the dealership keep telling me I don't need to get into the compartment where the door swings laterally...   I don't think that's true. The mobile technician said she would take care of that. 

As to the doggone Coach Power (aka Salesman's) switch, it or its solenoid in the compartment over your batteries can wear from overuse.  Where Beavers were originally made, perhaps even yours, in Bend, and at Beaver Coach Service across the street, they would tell you adamantly to leave that's switch ON.  To avoid your forgetting or someone else switching it off, you could put tape over it, securing it in the ON position however temporarily.  Some even jumper the switch connections behind it, or jumper the rear solenoid's posts so inadvertently turning the switch off at the entry door doesn't actually do anything but put wear on it.

Joel
  The owner of the dealership said the reason the coach power button didn't work (as in turn off) was that a cable wasn't plugged into the proper location.  Maybe he was referring to the jumper, and that was done intentionally so that it couldn't be turn off.  I'm not using it anymore!!!

   

[Sherry Klumpp]

Steve,

“There is a black switch just behind the drop-down table near the kitchen sink.  If I turn that on, lights come on.  Those are supposed to be electric only.  I don't normally use those, but I have used them to check whether I'm getting shore power or not.”
Not sure what this switch is but most lights run on 12v DC so I don’t think this is a good indicator of shore power. The inverter (Xantrex) control panel should have a shore power or AC IN indicator.
 The Xantrex light for AC IN/Charge is green and on.  However, it's the only light on the panel that is on.

[Steve Huber]

That  tells you that AC power is present and that the charger is on (assuming it has been enabled). you should be able to observe the charge rate on the display. Refer to your Xantrex manual.
Steve

[Sherry Klumpp]

Thanks to all of you!!  I now have a much better understanding about how all these energy systems work together or independently.  I think I may be able to trouble shoot from here, or at least be able to explain why "coach power" shouldn't be touched.  That's what the previous owner told me.  All of you have more collective knowledge about these motorhomes than most these days !

Sherry

[Joel Ashley]

The transfer switch box is mounted to the back wall of your cord reel compartment, and may look like this one:  https://www.invertersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6035&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping&utm_term=1101103909189&utm_content=Product%20Listing%20Ads

The most common #12 extension cord is yellow, whereas most small standard #14's are orange.  The wire size should be embossed along the cord, such as "12-3" for the wiring inside consists of three size 12 wires - black, white, and green.

As to the Atwood unit in place of the HydroHot, I've not heard of that maneuver, nor that Atwood had such an animal.  They do furnaces, air conditioners, water heaters and such, and control thermostats for hydronics, but hydronic units themselves?  Perhaps what you have is a water heater and a separate furnace, as opposed to a hydronic combination?

Yes, it sounds like someone has already jumpered the Coach Power circuit.

Joel

[Sherry Klumpp]

The transfer switch box is mounted to the back wall of your cord reel compartment, and may look like this one:  https://www.invertersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6035&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping&utm_term=1101103909189&utm_content=Product%20Listing%20Ads

The most common #12 extension cord is yellow, whereas most small standard #14's are orange.  The wire size should be embossed along the cord, such as "12-3" for the wiring inside consists of three size 12 wires - black, white, and green.

As to the Atwood unit in place of the HydroHot, I've not heard of that maneuver, nor that Atwood had such an animal.  They do furnaces, air conditioners, water heaters and such, and control thermostats for hydronics, but hydronic units themselves?  Perhaps what you have is a water heater and a separate furnace, as opposed to a hydronic combination?

Yes, it sounds like someone has already jumpered the Coach Power circuit.

Joel

Joel, I think you just described my problem.  When I was out last weekend, someone showed me the transfer box.  I know exactly what you are referring to.  I tried attaching a picture, but it's too large.
My email is klumppsa@gmail.com.  I can send it to you via email. 
Thanks!!!

[Sherry Klumpp]

The transfer switch box is mounted to the back wall of your cord reel compartment, and may look like this one:  https://www.invertersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6035&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping&utm_term=1101103909189&utm_content=Product%20Listing%20Ads

The most common #12 extension cord is yellow, whereas most small standard #14's are orange.  The wire size should be embossed along the cord, such as "12-3" for the wiring inside consists of three size 12 wires - black, white, and green.

As to the Atwood unit in place of the HydroHot, I've not heard of that maneuver, nor that Atwood had such an animal.  They do furnaces, air conditioners, water heaters and such, and control thermostats for hydronics, but hydronic units themselves?  Perhaps what you have is a water heater and a separate furnace, as opposed to a hydronic combination?

Yes, it sounds like someone has already jumpered the Coach Power circuit.

Joel

Joel, on the Automatic Transfer Switch- it is a WFCO, Model:WF-T57.  The bolts that should hold the wires in place are just dangling loose- meaning that the connectors that should hold the cords in place are not attached to the transfer box.  The cords are white and red, although it looks like there is also a black.  The main electric cord that plugs into shore power is black. I will be at the motorhome tomorrow.  I'll look for the numbers.
Yeah, I shouldn't have an Atwood.  this is what they replaced the Hydro-hot with: http://www.atwoodmobile.com/dealer-manuals/waterheatermanual.pdf
I have a warranty.  Even though the Atwood works, the mobile tech is going to try and get it replaced with an Aqua-hot.  Is that the same as the Hydro-hot? 

[Joel Ashley]

Okay, that's what I figured... a regular Atwood water heater;  but what sort of unit is used to heat the inside of the coach - a propane furnace?  Where was that installed? 

Regardless, be aware a new hydronics unit that supplies both hot water and coach heat, can preheat the engine prior to starting it, and allows hot engine coolant to help run it, will cost perhaps $7k not including labor to undo whatever was done to add the furnace and water heater.  Hopefully some of the original hydronics installation remains for reuse.  Now, I suppose you could have an uncommon factory basic coach, without the hydronics option, but that's not what you understood re the sale of the rig.

Vehicle Systems made the AquaHot hydronics unit for larger coaches, and it's found in Marquis and Patriots, etc.  Later they built a smaller version less costly and more appropriate to Montereys and such, and called it HydroHot.  A few years ago they changed the company name and that of all models regardless of size to just AquaHot.

As to the transfer switch, I've not heard of that brand, but here is the info for it:  www.americanrvcompany.com/assets/images/t57.pdf
Most of us have Technology Research's Surge Guard automatic transfer switch, known to be reliable coach protection and switching function.  Why the wire connections are loose is anyone's guess, perhaps from incomplete work by a frustrated prior owner or his tech.  Obviously that is a hazardous situation.

Quite frankly you need to get the coach to a service facility with a known reputation for a more satisfying analysis.  Mobile tech's have their place, but not necessarily in an instance of major projects like you seem to be up against.  Installing a hydronics unit, for example, should be done by very experienced tech's such as you'd find in Bend, Colorado at or near the AquaHot factory, Elkhart, Florida, Washington, or other known-expert installation resource.  If you go to the AquaHot website you can get help with that.

Joel

[Keith Moffett Co-Admin]

Sherry, if I may add my 2 cents here.  I believe Joel has hit the nail on the head here.  The priority here at least for me would be finding a good shop.  It sounds like someone who thinks they know what they are doing did some work on your coach.  They seem to have been over their head.
A good shop will examine all systems including the power transfer switch and make it safe for you to use.  A new Transfer switch would allow the Aladdin to read right and a new relay for the salesman switch will make 12V system reliable.
Make the coach safe first and then find a good Hydro Hot as time and budget allows. 
I dont know your location but if you can make it to Beaver Coach Sales in Bend Or.  They can help you get your feet on the ground and give you info. You can count on as well.
Good luck and welcome to the family!

[Joel Ashley]

Joel, I think you just described my problem.  When I was out last weekend, someone showed me the transfer box.  I know exactly what you are referring to.  I tried attaching a picture, but it's too large.
My email is klumppsa@gmail.com.  I can send it to you via email. 
Thanks!!!
[/quote]

You can use Microsoft Windows "Paint" and it's skew menu to cut a photo to 25% which usually works, or Apple's photo editing allows for resizing also.  Home > Private BAC Members Only and choose the instruction document Steve Huber and I created to help make pix available here.  Posting it here will help others so they can contribute.

Joel

Oops. The photo resizing help documents got moved.  They're under "Forum Assistance (Members Only" now, not "Private BAC Members Only".