50 amp surge protector

[Richard Cooper]

In short this guy does not know what he is talking about.

LOL  I bet you run across that a lot.  

I'm running everything through you and the other Beaver guys.  

What do you know about the PowerMaster VC-50 -- as it's both a power booster and surge protector in one.  Too good to be true?

[Edward Buker]

I read that post also and my immediate thought was that the doctor slapped him at the wrong end at birth.....

Later Ed

[Gerald Farris]

Richard,
The PowerMaster VC-50 is a good autoformer, however it can not replace a Surge Guard because it has no protection against mis-wired pedestals. ultra low or ultra high voltage, and it does not have a built-in delay when power is interrupted to protect your A/C units. Surge protection is just a part of what the Surge Guard does.

I am confused here, Why are you looking for an Autofomer? If you are like most Beaver owners who stay in modern RV parks, you rarely run into the low voltage conditions that an autoformer is designed to correct. So why are you looking to spend $500 to $700 on an autoformer?

Gerald

[Richard Cooper]

Like you -- I'm a member of Thousand Trails and I've experienced their old run-down campgrounds in Florida.  I'm thinking I won't renew my membership next February, but would like to use it this summer and fall.

Otherwise, I don't always seek out the modern and more expensive campgrounds.  Perhaps I should though, huh?

The best pricing I've found so far on the Hughes Autoformer RV220-50 is $509.  Do I need the installation kit too?
http://autoformersdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=28

[Edward Buker]

If you get a 50amp service in a park, it tends to be newer installation and in my travels I have only had one experience of a low voltage condition with a 50amp service panel. It was due to a grid issue with a large manufacturing facility with machines next to the camground. Very rare. You may consider always taking a campground that has 50amp service and the upcharge as opposed to an autoformer. If you use 30 amp campground service a lot, the autoformer is proabably a good idea. The surgeguard is a good idea no matter what service you use.

Later Ed

[Gerald Farris]

Richard,
The Thousand Trails system is a great way to RV at an inexpensive rate if you use it a lot. The system has some nice up to date parks as well as some parks that date back to Barney Rubble, an believe me that the Florida parks are not the worst. I was at a TT park in central Washington State on July 4th weekend a few years ago, and with the park at capacity, the temperature at 105 degrees, the old aluminum wiring was unable to deliver adequate voltage to at least half of the sites. In fact my neighbor had to run his generator at least 12 hours a day because the pedestal voltage for his 30 amp site was at 95 volts. I was at a 50 amp site next-door with 112 to 115 volts under load.

As for only staying in modern, up to date, and expensive parks, not my style. I guess that I am to cheap or something but an older park in an area that I want to be in is much better than a new one somewhere else.

Your question about whether or not you need the install kit depends upon how you plan on using the Autoformer. If you are going to use it at the pedestal only when you are in a park with low voltage, then no you do not need the install kit. However if you are going to hardwire the unit into your coach so that it is always online, then yes you will need the installation kit or you can buy the same parts and makeup your own kit from a large hardware store for about the same price.

Gerald

[Richard Cooper]

You probably have a TT membership that allows you to camp all over the US.  I've considered that and perhaps buying one on Ebay or something.  Perhaps that's another thread here?  All I have is a one year southeastern membership.  I've already gotten my $500 cost back with staying 30 nights for free.  Each night here after until the membership expires is supposed to be $3.  It's a no brainer to me, but I imagine that availability of spaces this summer will be quite limited.  I always ask for 50 amp spaces --- one time I got 30 amp, but did not have to run air conditioning for it.

I recently joined Passport America.  I am like you too in that I don't want to pay a lot for camping spots.  I don't have kids traveling with me and thus, a swimming pool and playground are not on my priority.  I like 50 amps, clean, quiet, even shady campgrounds that can be easily gotten to and out of.  A semi-level spot would be nice.  

Following your lead -- you've got your hardwired Surge Guard first in-line followed by your hardwired Hughes autoformer.  That configuration protects you as best you can from older cheaper campgrounds.

I got that correct about which comes first, right?  Surge Guard and then Autoformer?  Some people do it the other way around.  I'm not sure what is right until I hear what you have done.  

[Edward Buker]

That is a good question. I would probably do the autoformer first so that the low voltage cut out of the surgeguard is not invoked as long as the autoformer can still compensate voltage enough to meet spec. When that system can no longer support the low voltage requirement, the Surgeguard would then disconnect you. The only downside I could think of is that the voltage drop would be greater when pulling current, so you might get into a scenario when the Surgeguard kicks out, then the incoming voltage rises enough to go through a reconnect cycle. Then the voltage falls out of spec with current demand during the reconnect cycle and then it disconnects you again. That could happen in either wiring configuration but may be more likely with the autoformer first. If you get repeated disconnects in either configuration I would disconnect for awhile until the grid was back delivering the voltage that is needed.

The Autoformer folks should have thier answer for that installation order question also.

Later Ed

[Richard Cooper]

I wonder what Gerald's response to the order of surge guard with autoformer is.

Here's a timely article in FMCA on this subject:

http://www.fmcmagazine.com/motorhome-articles/7075

[Gerald Farris]

Richard,
The circuit arrangement that is recommended by Autoformer manufacturers is the Autoformer first, then the Surge Guard followed by the transfer switch. After some careful thought, I chose to change that arrangement and place the Surge Guard first, then the Autoformer followed by the transfer switch.

The reason that I chose the arrangement that I did is the fact that I was trying to protect my coach from low voltage, especially the A/C compressors, and since the surge guard does no cut off power for low voltage until it sees voltage below 102V for 8 seconds, I thought that the threshold was to low . So I placed the Surge Guard first and the Autoformer next to basically raise the threshold by ten percent with the Autoformer increasing the voltage after the Surge Guard. If the incoming shore power is below 102V, I think that it is to marginal and undependable to be on line anyway.  

The engineers that designed these things chose to recommend wiring them one way and I chose another way. I am sure that there are merits to wiring the units the way that was recommended by the manufacturer, but I am very happy with the way that my system performs and I am not changing it. However I am sure that some of the engineers on the forum may have different opinions.

Gerald

[Edward Buker]

Gerald's considertaion in wiring the autoformer second is a good one. It is a matter of priority how you choose to wire these units. If you want your coach systems to stay online as long as possible in 105 degree heat with a low voltage issue, the autoformer would come first then the Surgeguard. If you want to have a more conservative higher voltage cut out point than 102V, more like 112V for 8 seconds then the Surgeguard would go first.

 Usually these low voltage problems are driven by air conditioner load due to very hot weather and you may opt to have the air conditioning online as long as possible given that scenario. I would guess that the Surgeguard folks were diligent in getting the low voltage cut out limit about right to protect air conditioners but I am not sure of that. I did look at DuoTherm specs but I did not see a low AC limit listed. I guess the question might want to be posed to SurgeGuard as to how they came up with that 102V limit and was it derived with adequate testing to protect air conditioning compressors. If so you have a choice, if not Gerald's configuration adds a margin of safety over the SurgeGuard alone or the autoformer followed by a SurgeGuard.

My gut feel is that 102V is sufficient to maintain a running compressor online without an issue but it is insufficient in hot weather to get by the starting current issue of a unit trying to come online. The 8 second window is the main protection given it is the probablility of your air unit trying to start sometime within that 8 second window and failing to be able to start. A few seconds is probably not enough time to burn the compressor motor out before the Surgeguard takes the coach AC line and disconnects you. SurgeGuard should be able to justify the limits they chose. One of you folks looking to buy a SurgeGuard should have that conversation and post the results.

Later Ed

[Stan Simpson]

I've read this entire thread, concerned because soon we will be "long timers" and subject to various camp grounds. I'm attaching a picture of my electrical bay. I don't see a surge protector in line with the transfer switch. Also, my manual on the 'new to us' Beaver only lists Surgeguard as the supplier of the transfer switch, and says nothing about a surge protector. I'm guessing I don't have one.

Can someone take a look at this picture and confirm what I think, please?

Thank you.

Stan

[Edward Buker]

I think you may have surge protection but you cannot read the model number. Can you post that number and the information can be looked up. Your manual may include the literature for that Surgeguard unit and that could also provide the info that you need.

Later Ed

[Stan Simpson]

Woo Hoo!! Like someone said earlier, read the manual! I dug through the box of manuals on all of the components in the coach, and found out that we have a Surge Guard Plus, model 40250, which is a combination transfer switch and 50 amp surge protector.

Thank you Ed for the impetus to check further.  

Stan

[Richard Cooper]

I took my new TRC34560 hardwireable surge guard (50 amp) to a RV service dealer in the city where I am camping this week.  The owner said it would take about 3 hours to install it plus materials for extra wire, etc. so I can see it.  I got the impression he wasn't very familiar with this and so I backed away from it.  In a few days I will begin my journey which will last perhaps 4 months taking me up as north as Toronto and back.  I don't have time to check around and find someone competent around here.  I bought the surge guard from Camping World online, but they don't have a store here.  I'm not sure even they could be trusted to install it correctly.  Frankly, I wouldn't really trust anyone but one of you active members here.  But then you are way far away from me and well.....

So..... I've opted not to spend $300-$400 it would cost to install this hard wirable surge guard.  I certainly don't know how to do it myself.  I'm an accountant and number cruncher.  I can do a large corporate tax return, but I sure as heck don't know my way around electrical components.  I would either end up getting fried myself or burning something down.

I've just ordered another surge guard -- this time the 50 amp portable one -- TRC34750.  I just spent $350 for that.  Now I will own 3 surge guards.  Rarely do I end up making such mistakes in judgement as usually I ask questions from this board and research it over and over.  But this time now I feel foolish.  Thus, I need to sell the 2 I don't need and pray no one steals from a pedestal the portable one I'm about to get and start using to protect my rig.  Life is a pain at times.

All of you guys who have advised me in this forum are very blessed to have the ability, experience, and confidence to do all the things you do.  As for me, I have to find someone to do it and pay them.  One thing I've observed is that you don't want just any jack leg working on a Beaver.

Someone recently posted that there is little opportunity for finding competence in the south.  And that it seems the better sources for Beaver repairs and maintenance are in the NW of US.  I feel stressed about that too because I can't just go drive to Bend, Oregon to get something done.  It's tempting though.  But, no, not this year.