Author Topic: Suspension Air  (Read 15512 times)

Jerry Emert

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Suspension Air
« on: September 14, 2015, 04:25:15 AM »
Sorry I don't remember what thread it was in.  There was a discussion about the Magnum chassis losing air while going down the road as the suspension reacted to the road.  We took a short 100 mile trip this weekend and I watched the air closely.  The green needle never varied more than 5-10 PSI max from its normal 110 PSI normal reading.  Red was always at 110 PSI and rock solid.  I also noticed I was reading the gauge wrong.  110 PSI is the cutoff of the air compressor according to my gauge.  I also noticed that the green needle goes to 0 overnight.  I guess I should check that.  Sorry I don't remember the thread.
Jerry
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2003 Patriot Thunder Lexington 40' 3 Slides
C-12 Ser#  2KS89983
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Joel Ashley

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2015, 09:00:48 AM »
Sounds like a leak of a system off your primary tank, Jerry, but a simple initial check would be to make sure the 4 tank purge valves are all fully closed (if your coach has them as such), and that the auxiliary outlet quick-disconnect valve is good.  Sans that, at that quick a leak down, you may be able to pinpoint the culprit by just listening carefully;  air must be slipping out loudly enough.

Joel
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 09:03:26 AM by Joel Ashley »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat
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Dave Atherton

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2015, 01:48:05 PM »
Jerry, look back on last weeks posts, Myself, Ed , Keith, Joel had very good talk about air pressures,
air systems etc. Do not know where  there located now but bottomed out on postings.
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Dave Atherton

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2015, 02:21:16 PM »
Jerry, back again, getting my mind going early in a.m. Your air system is split between the front and back brakes. Each system has a needle, should be red for front system and green for the rear brake system. Being the green needle dropped to zero over night your problem is located in your rear brake system. You mentioned air system staying at 110 psi running your air pressure should be set up to run and pop off air dryer 120 - 125 psi.

If your air compressor is a Bendix Duraflo 596 you have (3) type of air governors, one is D-2A which is non adjustable version of the Bendix D-2 governor which can be adjusted. Than there is the D-2 /SV1 air governor for the Duraflo 596 air compressor that provides
a faster air recover rate. All depends what your air compress has.

Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 04:43:50 PM by Glenda Farris Co-Admin »
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Edward Buker

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2015, 03:09:47 PM »
Dave, Jerry,

I'm not sure if there is a clear answer on where our max pressure is supposed to be set on these Magnum and Roadmaster C12 chassis. Dave, the values you state by compressor I'm sure are correct for the compressor. It would seem that most posts for these coaches have been around the 110 to 115lb range for cut out. I just do not know if we were set up in that range for a reason. I think going higher pressure will not be an issue but cycling will be about the same because I think cut in and cut out values move together with the adjustment. For now I am going to leave well enough alone and maybe Gerald will chime in on this.

Jerry, going to zero overnight for your green needle is more air loss then expected, my leak down rate is less than that.

As far as air use based on my understanding of these suspensions, when the coach goes high like with a bump the valves let air out, when it comes down lower then it is set for, the valves let air in so there is constant use of air with varying road conditions by the three leveling valves. This is true for the coach leaning due to wind or road tilt also. So you may have the on pressure at 100 and the off at 110psi and are cycling between those two values often. My older Beaver coach on a Gillig chassis used less air but they used what was known as slow acting valves which metered air with some delay or flow reduction before making a height adjustment. I think Magnum and Roadmaster use fast acting valves now that constantly compensate to stabilize the coach which consumes a larger volume of air but the ride is more stable. My cycling between the cut in and cut off pressure typically cycles between 20 seconds and a minute and a half depending on road and wind conditions while driving.

Later Ed

Gary Carver

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2015, 08:36:45 PM »
federal dot regs state that all air brake systems shall cut out at 120 to 125 psi and if you were to buy a new d-2 governer it is factory set at 120 to 125psi---if you would go through a dot inspection and your air system would not go to 120psi you would be put out of service--so their is no discussion on what it should be.

Joel Ashley

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2015, 08:58:59 PM »
I thought it curious that Jerry's cutout was at 110.  Mine and most I've read about are at 120-125. 

But I'm not sure that any DOT regulations regarding it are only viable on commercial vehicles?

Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Dave Atherton

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2015, 10:14:46 PM »
Gentleman, D.O.T. Reg's are for all air systems and as I have been doing background on air
systems and is is clearly spelled out 120 - 125 psi. The correct pressure air system will respond, Recover faster and give the room for safety. I really do like all the input from club members on this subject
of air systems and correct air pressures and everyone give great post. At some point we need to
understand motorhomes fall under the D.O.T. Rules that is again spells out correct air system pressures.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

Lee Welbanks

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2015, 11:16:34 PM »
I wonder how many even know how to do a air brake system pre-trip inspection? I do a version of this when we are getting ready to leave for the next spot on the trip. How many of us have ever pumped their air pressure down until the spring brakes apply? and at what pressure do they apply? How long does it take to build your air pressure back up?
Just a few item we should all check before taking off down the road at 70 mph not having a clue of your air system.

http://www.cdldigest.com/pre_trip_inspection/brake_check.html

Edward Buker

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2015, 12:53:15 AM »
Dave,

I have read the Dot requirements and they require that the cut in pressure must be greater than 80PSI which would imply that air brakes are designed to work efficiently down to 80PSI as a design limit. That to me means that the air brake chambers are designed with enough force so they can be locked at 80PSI if need be. The only other PSI spec is that the upper limit must be less than 135PSI. I did not see any 125PSI spec. There is leak down rate at less than 2PSI a minute with service brakes released and engine off. 3PSI leak down limit with engine off and brakes fully applied. There is a 45 second max build time between cut in after brakes are applied and cut off with engine at max usable rpm while sitting. The 90 to 115PSI meets these specs as does the 100 to 125PSI for cut in and out pressure. I can see that air reserve would be enhanced at higher pressure but I am not sure that there is a real issue here.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title49-vol6/pdf/CFR-2010-title49-vol6-sec570-57.pdf

Can someone point to this 125PSI Dot requirement.

Later Ed

Keith Moffett Co-Admin

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2015, 01:13:04 AM »
Dave and Ed
This DOT back and forth here as well as on the previous thread can at first seem counter productive.  This highlights a prolem in a forum like ours at least in my mind.  What we get used to or the way our last coach operated can change or have been a bit wrong from before.
The air in the system and the expectation of recovery is a critical issue and relates to most of our members and their safety.  I for one am glad to see this interaction.  Everyone here is trying to provide the best information they can and doing a credible job.
Much thanks to all involved
Keith
2007 Patriot Thunder
45' C-13
2006 Explorer Ltd.
DW is Carol
Safe travels and
May God bless!

Lee Welbanks

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2015, 01:36:02 AM »
I think we are splitting hairs here with the air compressor cut out pressure, as a practice we always set the gov to cut in at 100 and out at 125 psig. Yes you can fully apply the brakes with only 80 psi, but how many times?
My point here for owners and anybody driving one of these big motorhomes down the highway at any speed to know and understand the air system and it function. I would guess there are more than we want to admit haven't a clue.
It states in the regs that the air pressure gauge be clearly visible in the normal seated position, in my PT the steering column blocks the gauge, maybe Monaco didn't read the reg's.

Jerry Emert

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2015, 01:42:59 AM »
I too appreciate all the info.  My problem is that I am not an experienced mechanic.  I don't know the air regulator from the thingamajig!  If someone knows of a good diagram somewhere, maybe I could see these things and put it all together.  Note:  I do recognize the alternator!
Thanks
No Clue Jerry!
Maybe I should Google it!
Jerry, Chief USN Retired
2003 Patriot Thunder Lexington 40' 3 Slides
C-12 Ser#  2KS89983
4000MH

Lee Welbanks

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2015, 02:11:37 AM »
Jerry, You are not one of the clueless, you are reading these posts and gaining knowledge of the workings of these machines just by looking at these posts.
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Edward Buker

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Re: Suspension Air
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2015, 02:45:16 AM »
This is a good summary where all types of air and air over hydraulic brakes are covered. It has good color diagrams of components and page 66 to 76 cover testing your system. There are questions for testing yourself if you care to.

As Lee has reiterated several times, as a minimum you need to know how to reset your slack adjusters using the brake pedal, how to test leak down rates, how to test the parking/emergency brake, and how to test recovery rates. Your air need to have a cut in pressure of at least 90lbs and a cut out pressure not less than 115lbs but not more than 135lbs. The slack adjusters need to be manually adjusted from time to time also. Hope this helps.

http://faculty.mccneb.edu/dlpartner/Documents/Air%20Brake%20Manual.pdf

Later Ed
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