Surge Protection

[Dick Simonis]

After reading a previous thread I was reminded that this coach doesn't have any surge protection and having had an "event" on my PT I figured it was time to get off the stick and address this issue.

I'm looking at:

http://tweetys.com/electrical-management-system-hardwire-50.aspx

or

http://tweetys.com/portable-50-amp-electrical-management-system.aspx

Cost doesn't seem to be the issue only trading the inconvenience of installing the built in vs. the additional step of attaching the portable when hooking up.   If I go with the built in I'm thinking of putting it downstream of the transfer switch so the coach would be protected in the event of a problem with the Gen set as well as a pedestal.

I have not crawled into the bay to see how much space is available near the transfer switch and I don't know if the wiring is stranded or solid.  Solid is a pain to deal with in a confined space.

Right now I'm leaning towards the portable but open to suggestions.

As always looking forward to comments from those that have gone before.

Dick

[David T. Richelderfer]

I have the portable style 50a surge protector which I purchased from Camping World a few years ago.  One advantage to the portable unit is I can walk the surge protector to several receptacles in a campground to make sure I have found a properly wired receptacle before parking the coach.  At one free campground I stayed at (behind Lincoln's Silver Dollar Inn at Haugan, MT) I walked the portable surge protector around (using a pigtail adaptor) checking at least eight or more 30a receptacles.  The surge protector would not allow power through from any of those receptacles I tried, although down the line there were several travel trailers and fifth wheel trailers plugged in, most probably to the 15a-20a house plug receptacles.  I ended up just parking out of the way at the West end behind the gas station, kind of away from anyone else, and used my generator overnight.  Had I not had the portable surge protector I would have been moving the coach from place to place, only to find that none of the receptacles were properly wired.

[Wayne Tull]

I installed the Progressive 50 amp, but did not include genset input.  The wiring was stranded but at that size it doesn't flex easily in a confined space.  Low entertainment project, but one less thing to deal with outside the coach. Would I do it again? Yes.   

[Edward Buker]

Dick,

The thing about anything that you plug and unplug outdoors, the plugs and contacts wear over time and the unit is exposed to weather. The 50 amp service plug we have now, the receptacle lives under a cover in most power panels out of the weather. My guess is this unit will not and will hang below the cover. On top of that it is visible and there are theft issues. On the good side if you may be changing coaches in the not too distant future this unit is portable. On balance I like the internal hardwired units best.

One could conceive of a third option, to add a 50 amp female and male receptacle in the incoming power feed line in the bay, such that they are pluggable to each other. Then you could add the portable unit out of the way and out of the weather. If you change coaches it could go with you and no theft issues. If it failed it would be an easy plug and change option.

This option could be installed in the line after the transfer switch so both the generator and outside power feed is protected. I had an instance on this last trip where a wire came loose in the generator terminal block that ties the coach and generator together. It was a hot wire so I lost 1/2 of the 120V feed while it was running. Had that been the neutral wire I would have had the dreaded open neutral line issue. The generators vibrate and this is a screw terminal block that was not of the best quality I have seen. If you are going to the trouble of hard wire and you can protect the coach from all power feed sources then that would be best. I'm not completely sure if you lost the neutral while in operation if any of these units would protect the coach. It goes through a pre-check and then connects, you are already connected when the neutral is lost and there is the sense and disconnect time. Power spikes are different, they get clamped as they rise and shorted to ground in milliseconds. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Steve Huber]

Dick,
Ed makes a good point re weathering of outside unit. I've mounted my surge guard next to the transfer switch on all 3 of our coaches. As Wayne noted, much less hassle; just plug in to the pedestal. I've wired mine to the input of the transfer switch as (IMHO) the vast majority of possible problems will be pedestal related and I can check the generator connections when I service it. I also check the pedestal before plugging in with my checker. Keep in mind that hooking the surge protector to the output of the transfer switch will introduce the 2 minute delay to both shore and generator power.
http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,2047.msg14607.html#msg14607
Steve

[Jeremy Parrett]

The TRC 50 amp Transfer switch combined Surge Protector I installed replaces the original transfer switch so I have covered both the pedestal and the generator.  No question this is the best solution.   In the future  I will  take a good look at the pedestal and enquire whether it has been checked recently.

[Ron Johnson]

Just a followup question - if, after plugging in to the post there is a 2 minute delay, does that mean my Surge Guard is wired AFTER the output side of the transfer switch?? If so does that mean if there is an open neutral or something bad at the post that possibly the transfer switch and\or generator could be damaged?

[Edward Buker]

The open neutral would most likely damage the transfer switch if the protector is installed after the transfer switch. If the circuit board that is controlling the relay logic in the transfer switch is failing due to an open neutral line then I do not think you can guarantee that the generator wiring and the power feed wiring would never be connected together at the same time through the relays. On balance I think putting the protector before the transfer switch is safer overall given it is a pretty remote issue that the genset output would need this protector. There is some monitoring done by the genset for voltage that I think has some shut down limits.

I was a little more open minded in my last post as to where to put the protector but a failing transfer switch circuit board could be an issue if the generator relay and the power pole relay both had closed connection contacts that wired the power feed and the genset together at the same time. Ron brings up a good question here.

Later Ed

[Dick Simonis]

Thanks for the replies.  I looked at Progressive industries FAQ's and they also recommend placing the surge protector in front of the transfer switch.  Their comment is that the gen set is already protected by the internal circuitry.

Still mulling over portable vs wired and will crawl into the bay today and scope it out.

[Lee Welbanks]

Dick,

Go with the hard wired, takes a bit to install but once in place your bad shore power problems are isolated from your coach.The portable ones have been known to grow legs and run off during the night, have to lock it to the pedestal.
I also found that the two minute delay was a pain, your not really sure you have good power until the thing finally clicks on.

[Dale Wiest]

On my 94 Marquis Le, the transfer switch is mounted up high, in the rear cap, right behind the electrical panels.  I can see it from the access hole beside the panels above the bed. How would I approach this on my unit. Would there be enough slack in the panel wires to remove the electrical panel screws and get to the transfer switch that way, because you would need arms 4' long to reach anything from the side access panel and wouldn't be able to see anything at the same time. Hmmmm ? Ideas ?

[Wayne Tull]

1994 Beaver Marquis         I also replaced the transfer switch for one with DC relays, note the progressive 50 does not have a DC relay.  You only need to remove the DC side if you don't mind a smaller working space.

[Wayne Tull]

Maybe I didn't understand the concern of an open ground from the pedestal damaging the transfer switch leading to power in and generator being connected at the same time.  The several transfer switches I have had apart have mechanical linkage to prevent this from happening.  However I haven't seen all transfer switches either.

[Edward Buker]

Wayne,

If you had a transfer switch configuration where the relays were a double throw so that the contacts have to break from the power pole connections to connect to the generator contacts, then for that configuration I cannot see a mean by which the genset and the power pole could be connected together. In this case you could feel comfortable to mount the protector after the transfer switch.

For a configuration where there are two relays, one for the power pole source and one for the genset source, and the output side of the relays are tied in parallel to send power to your main power panel. Normally one relay or the other is closed based on the sensed power source. That configuration would be of a concern with a failing circuit board and putting the generator at risk if both relays were activated at the same time. Like you I was not sure how all transfer switches were designed and just thought this pre transfer switch protection was a good safe bet.

If you look at your own transfer switch and you have a good sense of how it works and can determine that there is no situation where the generator and the power pole inputs can be tied together (fail safe design) then the protector can be installed before or after the transfer switch. If installed after only the transfer switch is at risk with an open neutral.

Later Ed

[Dick Simonis]

Hmmm, just went out and looked at the transfer switch location and there is no room to mount the device.  My best bet for a wired unit would be to replace the transfer switch with an all in one unit but only if was the exact same size or smaller.  I'm sure a pro could make one work but it would be tough.

Unless I come up with a better idea it looks like the portable is in my future.  Continuing to mull.