2000 Beaver Patriot Racor Upgrade

[Marty Bailey]

Hello everyone, I am upgrading our Racor fuel filter/water separator with a Racor 790R30 on our 2000 Beaver with a Cat C12. Has anyone already accomplished this?

Marty

[Edward Buker]

Marty,

Looks like a nice unit. Although not a Beaver coach, there is a ink to others who have installed that unit on several Monaco coaches and seems like all good reports and an easy install. Nice priming system.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/racor-790r30-filter-install-193720.html

Should be a good unit.

Later Ed

[Marty Bailey]

Thanks Ed. On our 2000 they have a nice fiberglass compartment and unfortunately the old system is just mounted to the fiberglass. I am going to need to build a support to mount the new filter too. So FYI to all late 1990s and early 2000 beavers with a fiberglass service bay there is limited support for your filters and when you are driving down the road the are bouncing all over the place.

Marty 

[Doug Allman]

Marty, Why would you not install a CAT fuel water separator instead of an non CAT unit?

[Edward Buker]

Marty,

Seems like you might be able to sandwich the plastic in some aluminum plate out to near some panel edges if it was flat enough and then mount through the aluminum. You can visual it and have a better idea then I if that would work.

Later Ed

[Marty Bailey]

Doug I guess I could of used a Cat filter, I was staying with Racor because the 790R30 is a replacement for what was in stalled by Beaver.

Marty

[Marty Bailey]

Here is a pic and video. I will keep everyone updated with my progress.

Marty

[Edward Buker]

Marty,

I think you forgot the link in your last post....

Doug,

For what it is worth, there are some of us that would still like to purge our fuel filters of air before we crank the engine. This unit has a built in electric pump and there are replacement parts so that the pump or other parts can be replaced if it is ever needed.

BAC owners with C12s that have converted to the CAT head prefilter without a priming pump, after they have several filter changes and some experience, it will be reassuring to the more timid like myself. I hope they post and share their experience.

I would love to see a documented procedure from CAT that explains how to do a pre filter and secondary filter change on a C12 without a priming pump and several empty filters. I have searched and I cannot find one. I can follow manuals and procedures but I do not want to be experimenting and I do not want anyone else who works on my coach experimenting especially if I have to change one on the road.
The manual or electric priming systems have documented procedures that are "fool proof."...sometimes I need that :-)

Later Ed

[Doug Allman]

Ed, As the info on the Forum notes we have a Catepillar Diesel diagnostics member, Dave Atherton, that has 42 years service with Catepillar and is also a significant resource for other diesel brands. I would suggest you contact him for any procedure or attached system that is to be utilized with a Caterpillar engine. He has the SIS program from CAT and all the CAT bulletins that pertain to any operation or maintenance for a Catepillar diesel engine, over the road or off road use.

Several of us have changed to the CAT fuel water separator, including myself, and have found much better results than from the previous system used by the manufacture. On my C12 I find that what I always believed was just the nature of a diesel, all the noises when it sat there idling, was not true. My 3116 in our Contessa did the same so I just regarded it to be a diesel character. I worked for years (1994 til 2012) to try to get those sucking, pinging, dinging etc sounds gone with no avail on the Contessa.

After I changed to the CAT fuel water separator all those noises are gone. I stood there listening for almost 5 minutes because I could not believe it was so quiet when running. The C12 just sits there and purrs without any of the extraneous noises. It idles extremely smooth. I have to attribute that to it getting all fuel and no air as I did no other changes.

Do not get me wrong it is not a different engine but the change to the CAT system has made an improvement that I thought was not possible. It runs smoother at idle. It starts quicker. It runs at about 200 rpm lower going down the highway at 60 mph. There is no movement in the tach like it used to when at idle and slight surging moved the needle around.

I have not yet traveled far enough to verify if it made any mpg difference but I will in about 3 weeks as we head out to the Black Hills.

I am not here to try and demean any other system but I made the change solely on Dave Athertons advice and could not be happier with the results. If it protects my $50,000 engine I could not be happier to spend a little over $100.00 to do so.

[Doug Allman]

Marty, I fully understand how you thought as I never considered changing mine to CAT either. I did not totally understand the Racor system, and still do not much less how a fuel system totally worked on a diesel engine. I just had enough $ to buy a coach that had a diesel in it.

However, when the situation came up with the fuel line deterioration problem that is being found on numerous coach's I had Dave Atherton look at my unit. The fuel line from the CAT to the Racor was also a hydraulic line and Dave suggested that be changed immediately. Dave indicated that lines to my tank were OK and I did not have to change like some others have had to that have hydraulic lines that are deteriorating internally form the diesel fuel.

In that discussion Dave also noted that it would be a very good move to change the Racor to the CAT fuel water separator. Dave has helped and made suggestions to many others in the group I know and so I decided I would put all my trust in a man that has 42 years CAT experience and the CAT system tools to monitor my engine for me. He is a Certified CAT mechanic and a Beaver Amb member.
He does not guess, he knows what and why you do things. He has the certification and the system and documents to back him up.

I had been guessing for 20+ years and getting information from guessers and I could not have been more pleased at having found a BAC member that had the qualifications that Dave Atherton has.
He is a BAC member that has my back, he doesnt charge for his information, tells you to call him anytime, and gives you an insurmountable amount of information that you can understand of why that engine does what it does - IF you will care for it properly.

The guessing also comes from a CAT dealer as I have paid for that also, as have many others. A CAT dealer has one purpose in life and that is to make money to keep his shop open. When you go in and tell them that your engine is not performing like it used to they will go immediately to work on your engine. Now that work will be performed properly but it is not always the work you needed. It may not always cure the problem you have either, but you still pay. Nothing they do is for small $$$$.

Dave Atherton brings everything that a CAT dealer has to us PLUS he is a BEAVER AMBASSADOR MEMBER. He has our backs and that is totally invaluable. My guessing days are history thanks to Dave.

Here are a few episodes of recent month that Dave has furnished diagnostics on. All are over the telephone problems that he directed members to how to go about fixes. Mandy Canales, Could not get his to run. Member in Colorado that has a Cummins and had a sensor that was the problem causing loss of power and black smoke. Judge in Kansas that coach had no power and a waste gate that would not operate,rusted shaft.   ( I used only Mandys name as most all know him)  This is the kind of person that is just invaluable to us all. Dave did not get a nickle but he saved the members numerous dollars. The Judge had already spent about $2000.00 and to no avail.

[Edward Buker]

Doug,

I respect Dave Atherton and all his experience. Those Racor fuel systems that leaked air at the prefilter probably had issues with idle and surging and I am happy those issue are resolved for you and others. I have done the maintenance changes on the Racor, to keep it air free, and have none of those issues to resolve. At some point when the electric pump in my current Racor fails, I will be faced with a decision of purchasing a simple head like Cat makes or one with a purge pump system like the one that Marty shared. For now the jury is still out on my migration path...

What Dave kindly passed along while using the Cat head, was to put the filters in dry, open the bleed screw on the final filter, crank the engine 30 seconds, let starter cool (I am guessing the customary 2 minutes. Dave leaves the bleed screw open I guess, which seems strange to me), then crank again 30 seconds and engine will want to start. By the second 30 seconds you should see fuel coming out the bleed screw, it will run rough trying to push the air through, then tighten bleed screw.

We have 60 seconds of open air purge valve and no fuel supply while cranking. I'm personally OK until we get to "it will run rough trying to push the air through". I have read C12 threads (non BAC) where engines without operable fuel purge pumps have not starting after a fuel filter change. I have no idea how some ended up with an air bound C12, given I do not know what procedure they used. If there is any chance of this happening to me, I would certainly opt for a purge system built into the filter head when making the change.

This issue may be just a personal dilemma on my part, not sure. It may be resolved in time with postings by BAC members who have made the conversion to the Cat head and have been through filter purging a number of times without issues. Hopefully those folks will post their experience here. We could document the procedure on BAC ourselves in time.

The issue....I could envision Beaver owners being on the road and having a fuel problem symptom, or it is time to have a filter set change. Would every tech who does service in the field know or have Dave's procedure at hand? Would you as the owner be responsible for telling the tech how to do this? If your engine ended up air bound who would own the expense of the problem? This is my personal dilemma with not having a Cat service bulletin or procedure in hand to pass along if it is needed. I am very comfortable that I could change filters on the road with a built in fuel purge pump and that most any tech could also. I know Dave Atherton was trying to explain this procedure to other Cat techs who may have been unaware, I do not see myself trying to carry that ball without a Cat procedure in hand.

So if anyone can come up with a documented purge procedure from Cat that we can have on board, that details how you are to purge a C12 of all the air when you do not have a purge pump, I think it could just make life easier while on the road and give those of us that do our own maintenance, something written to follow.

This is just my perspective, for what it is worth, and not intended to open any big debate on Racors etc.
Dave Atherton has been a great and kind resource to many of us and he has vast knowledge. This post is about what I am comfortable with and not any question about his deep CAT knowledge.

Later Ed

[Marty Bailey]

Doug thanks for the feedback. Looking at my fuel line from the Racor to the Cat, it is a fabricated line and more the likely a hydro line. I will take closer look at it. In that I have just got the new Racor I will stay on course with it for now. I am a aircraft technician by trade and know things must be done right and the first step is finding support that is smarter than you. The challenge is the manuals are so limited for the Beavers. Dave sounds like the person I need to become good buddy's with lol. PS: I am having trouble posting pics and a video any tricks?

Marty

[Marty Bailey]

I completed the upgrade to the Racor 790R30 Fuel filter/water separator.  To support the unit I built a frame out of 1 inch metal tubing and secured it to the existing maintenance bay frame and also scoured the primary fuel filter the the new support frame. this made the filters components significantly more secure then being bolted to just the fiberglass box. I also replaced the fuel line (It was a Hydro line) from the Racor to the engine pump. I use # 10 hose and push on fittings. The Racor filter filled with fuel from gravity and I use the Racor pump to bleed the line from the filter to the engine pump. It took about to days to do the job to build the frame and install the new system. PS: I have a welder to build the frame but bolted it to the RV frame.  I try and post pics.

Marty

[Marty Bailey]

Pic 1 frame

[Marty Bailey]

Pic 2