Engine will not start

[Mike Groves]

All,

Searched and found this thread.  This morning my dash indicators come on, computer comes on, all looks normal, but when turning key on nothing happens except dash light indicator "leveler down" extinguishes". 

This sounds pretty much like the original poster D. Wendel Attig mentioned except I've never had issues with dash indicators cutting out while drive (I don't think).

I purchased a solenoid about a year ago based on Gerald's posting for a unit and I have the Cole Hersee 85 continuous duty solenoid 24059BP.

Based on D. Wendel's "fix" my hope is by installing this new one that the coach will again start.  Up to now, in the 3 years I've owned my '99 Marquis the only abnormalities I've noticed were delayed starts which I have described before here as a sort of studder start, like the starter engages, breaks engagement, then immediately re-engages and starts the coach.  More recently there have been a couple of instances where I thought I turned the key on and nothing happened then turned it on and the coach started, but these times have been while the generator was running so I thought perhaps I didn't hear the starter.  Now I am thinking these were intermittent "brown outs" of some kind but which fixed themselves.

This morning I have tried several times to engage the starter even attempting to so by the "rear start" button, so it does appear that my next step is to replace this solenoid.

Now that I am there and have read this entire thread I just want to make sure that the only battery to disconnect is the CHASSIS BATTERY and that I can leave the coach batteries on.  Is that right?

Also I see no terminal markings on this solenoid so am I correct that I simply rewire it as I remove the existing wires and simply match post to post?

In other words here's what I am proposing to do but I'll wait to see any feed back -

1)  Turn off chassis batteries using switch in battery bay.
2)  Test 12 volt at existing solenoid to make sure there is no voltage there.
3)  Remove old solenoid taking note of all 4 connections and diode wire orientation
4)  Install new solenoid and attaching wires to the similar terminals.
5)  Have a great day because the coach will start.

Mike

[Mike Groves]

I did the replacement and no luck, still no start.  I guess checking starter voltage is next.  Where is the starter relative to facing the rear of the coach?

Thanks,
Mike

[Ron Johnson]

Just replaced my starter last year. It's bolted to the passenger side of the engine.

[Mike Groves]

It started.  And here is what I did.

1)  Decided that maybe the computer was locking it out so I rebooted the computer by disconnecting the negative on my chassis battery.  While it was rebooting I went and took a shower (every step is important here).

2)  Came back, and read some more on the various forums and the solution appeared to be "hit the starter with a hard object a few times".  So again I started looking for my starter.  Tried searching for an engine picture of a C12 and found as indicated in the previous post that it lay on the passenger side of the engine near the rear. 

3)  Raised my master bedroom bed to see if I could see the starter from up above.  No such luck so I lowered the bed and dropped it the last 2-3 inches.  Ahh...a vibration (so this step is probably important to be followed as well).

4)  Walked to the front of the vehicle to go have at the starter from beneath the coach, and remembered that before my shower I did STEP 1.  So I figured why not try starting it.  Before I did so, I turned the key on, and then set the transmission to 6 then back to N. I then turned the key to start it, had my door open and heard a click I think, so I released the key, then started it again an BINGO, the engine started right up.

We have been parked here for a week and its been getting a bit chillier but only into the mid 40's I think at a minimum.  It was cold this morning but had warmed up by the time of Step 4.

After starting it and stopping it and starting it again, then airing up, I crawled under to look for dirty connections at the starter and no such luck there - all looks pretty clean and tight (all painted yellow with no oil or residues of any kind there).  It is true that the engine blow hole is close by but those residues seemed to collect on the bottom of the engine and on what looked to be a part of the compressor air system (maybe the dryer?).

Margaret asked what do we do if this happens next Monday when we want to actually leave for our next destination?  Hmm...good question.  At that point I may have to do step 5, which is beat the starter a little bit.

Mike

[Gerald Farris]

Mike,
The most important item in the starting system and the one that you left out in your explanation is what was the chassis battery voltage? Low voltage in your chassis batteries could account for your problem.

Gerald

[Mike Groves]

Gerald,

We've been plugged in since our arrival and to answer your question, the battery voltage shows 12.3 on the dash Silverleaf, but when I changed out the solenoid the battery voltage there as measure by my voltmeter was just over 13 volts.

I've had the low battery condition before and that has always resulted in the clickity clack so familiar to all of us in years gone by on any car with a low battery.  The condition I noticed as, turn the key and the dash leveler light (only) goes out (all other dash indications remained on), and NO SOUND AT ALL.  Which was the description in the thread I'd found by Mr. Attig.

Something else I left out was that I did toggle the REAR/FRONT engine switch in the maintenance bay because I do remember having this problem about 3 years ago and I toggled that switch and the engine started.  How does that switch work?  Could it be "loose"?

Mike

[Gerald Farris]

Mike,
A chassis battery at 12.3 volts is only about 50% charged, so you should check your Echo Charger or batteries/battery cables if you are plugged into shore power. 

It is possible that the rear start switch is defective. It is fairly common for those switches to fail when used, but not to common to fail without use. What is the voltage at the starter solenoid energizing terminal (small wire) when you are trying to start the coach?

Gerald

[Mike Groves]

Gerald,

I've not checked anything on the starter other than look at its overall appearance.  Regarding the 12.3-4 volts showing on my Silverleaf, the battery voltage at the solenoid I just replaced in the electrical cabinet showed 13V so wouldn't that indicate a disparity between what the Silverleaf is reporting for battery voltage and what my volt meter is reporting?  And if that's true then how do I know which one is correct?  I feel that my Silverleaf (for whatever reason) is report about .6 low voltage.

Anyway, you do know that the engine did start yesterday right?

Mike

[Gerald Farris]

Mike,
What is the battery voltage at the batteries, at the battery terminal on the starter (top large terminal), the starter solenoid energizer terminal when trying to start the engine,  and the Silverleaf feed wire (small wire on starter battery terminal)? I can not answer your questions without more information. 

If you do not spend the time to properly diagnose a problem, you will just be throwing parts at a problem with a low probability of correction as many of you have seen by having work done on your coach by an unqualified technician who is trying to rush through a repair.

Gerald     

[Mike Groves]

Gerald,

I appreciate your help.  I just don't have the desire to crawl under to get those measurements at the starter as my wife starts the coach up (and it starts within a couple of seconds) so I understand you can not troubleshoot for me.  The battery shows 13.8V so that's the only one I can give you.  Seems pretty apparent that the issue is in the low tension system so that should be simple for a tech to work out especially if they raise the coach.

But I did glean something from you and that was that the Silverleaf battery sensor is coming from the starter?  So that's showing 12.3V ON THE SILVERLEAF DISPLAY while the battery shows 13.8 when I put my voltmeter to the chassis batteries.

Mike

[Steve Huber]

Mike,
While I agree with Gerald's inputs, it sure sounds like you've got a resistive connection between the batteries and the starter. You might want to clean the connections you can easily access between the chassis batteries and the starter. Include the ground connections.
Steve

[Mike Groves]

Which ones are easy to clean and where are they?

Thanks Steve,
Mike

[Steve Huber]

Mike,
Start at the chassis battery connections and clean every connection along the cables. Also, you may want to check the voltage at the first connection after the battery since sometimes corrosion occurs inside the cable "crimp" and causes a resistive connection, resulting in a significant voltage drop.
Steve

[Gerald Farris]

Mike,
The most likely location for your connection problem is the battery connection on the starter.

Gerald

[Mike Groves]

Gerald,

I did get under the coach and did find the starter and there is a big wire on it, then also on the solenoid affixed to it but above it.  I am going to attempt to clean those connections without getting stuff all over me.  Does the battery connection come to the solenoid or to the starter or both?

Mike