Engine Air Filter

[Keith Moffett Co-Admin]

Anyone have the Advanced Flow cleanable air filter?  This appears to be like the K&N.
What kind of fuel mileage did you see using this and how often did it need service?

[Steve Huber]

Keith,
IMHO the cleanable filters (e.g K&N) do not filter anywhere as efficiently as the replaceable ones. I wouldn't risk my engine with one.
Steve

[Keith Moffett Co-Admin]

Thats been my experience in general automotive.  Thanks Steve

[Lee Welbanks]

Keith,

The air filter system on your PT will flow all the air the Cat C13 needs, if you want a little more air for some reason you can get a air filter for a C 15 that will fit with a minor mod to the mount.
Cat will not warranty any motor with a K & N air filter on it. Our motors are way out of warranty but in any case if they will not warranty any K&N filtered motor they must know something, here is a link to a test ran on filters.http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html


Personally I would not put a K&N filter on any stock motor, hi performance is a different animal.

[Dave Atherton]

Lee thank you, the K&N filter will not filter out the fine power dust like the OEM filter will.
This fine power dust is what will damage the engine. Piston rings, oil guides etc. in additional
information taking Cat oil samples at oil change this fine power will show up in the oil sample
Report.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.

[Joel Ashley]

I know there's a lot of lasting negative feeling out there regarding the infamous K&N filter, including among our best respected advisors here.  Decades ago I had a K&N as part of a Banks Engineering installation on our old Pace Arrow.  A few times I did the wash and re-oil thing.  No problems.  I was cognizant and wary, however after reading warnings here and elsewhere, about putting one on our Beaver.

So I would be remiss not to add to this discussion that things change, and perhaps a re-examination is in order.  A consult with Robert Henderson of Henderson's Line-up in Grant's Pass made me aware that the K&N isn't the same as it was.  Yes you can clean it, but re-oiling it is not in the procedure.  With the demise of the oil application that required larger, coarser fabric for air to get through past the oil, the media could be made deeper, multi-tiered, and finer to trap all particulates;  I'm no engineer certainly, but I view it sort of like our 10 micron into 2 micron fuel filter principal, only with more levels. 

Robert went through the factory not too long ago and was impressed with the revamped engineering behind recent filter models relevant to diesel rigs.  He is one of those fellows whose opinion about performance engineering one has to respect, and he changed his attitude toward the brand.  He has no concerns these days about putting one on a diesel coach.  That's not something to brush aside.

I'm not saying to run out and buy a K&N.  I'm simply proffering reasons to research and consider the newest versions, rather than cast the brand aside based on a perhaps aged reputation.  Certainly if that doesn't prove enough or the initial cost puts one off, then the easiest and known-dependable route is a genuine CAT or Cummins filter.

Without a doubt some wouldn't ever avert from using only CAT or Cummins filters, and that is to be respected for its reasoning;  my approach over the years with regard to manufacture-branded parts usually has followed accordingly.  I just wanted to provide more than one side to the discussion, as it seems strongly lopped.  I hope it is helpful.

But Keith was asking about an entirely different brand than K&N anyway, as I take it.

Joel

[Gerald Farris]

Joel,
I understand your viewpoint, but in the extensive research that I have done on air filters, I have never seen a study where a washable filter of any brand that was as efficient at removing fine dust particles as the OEM paper air filters that our coaches came with. The washable filters flow more air because they are less restrictive, and therefore the fine dust goes right through them. I want the cleanest air possible going into my engine, therefore I would never think of using a washable air filter on my coach.

Gerald

[Jerry Emert]

Joel,
I understand your viewpoint, but in the extensive research that I have done on air filters, I have never seen a study where a washable filter of any brand that was as efficient at removing fine dust particles as the OEM paper air filters that our coaches came with. The washable filters flow more air because they are less restrictive, and therefore the fine dust goes right through them. I want the cleanest air possible going into my engine, therefore I would never think of using a washable air filter on my coach.

Gerald

Gerald, are there any filter brands to stay away from and which is the most efficient?  Thanks
Jerry

[Lee Welbanks]

Jerry,
I would say any of the name brand filters from Fram, Fleetguard, Wix, Donaldson, etc are all made to a certain spec. I would stay away from any washable so called high flow elements. I don't know how your PT is setup for air intake, on my 06 PT it has a 7" in and out of the filter. The vacuum gauge never seems to move much off of the bottom. The C13 is getting all the air it needs, I had thought about going with the filter for the C15 which is a easy mod.

[Dave Atherton]

Gentleman, good review on the K&N filter. One Thing Dave did not mention in his above post
entry of fine dust will take out a engine very quick. Caterpillar prevention for people that need
to travel in dusty conditions  go with the extreme service air filter. What the extreme service
does is add a inter air filter inside your present outer air filter on your motorhome. What the
inner air air filter does catch any dirt fines ( dust ) that may pass through the outer air filter.
Last note: cleaning air filter, do not tap air filter on hard surface because the paper that is glued
To hold filter ends in place breaks loose and dirt goes direct into engine. Low air pressure
35 to 40 pounds and blow from inside or middle of filter to outside. Washing air filters, Caterpillar
stopped that practice many years ago. The following reason the paper that air filter is made
from drys and gets hard and pulls restriction on air system. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

[Edward Buker]

There is a lot of information on this subject from prior posts. K+N has been discussed.

http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,1884.0.html

Donaldson Endurance Filters are probably the best on the market if you want a both a high capacity filter (ability to capture dirt and still allow the passage of air over time) and one that has the highest capture rates of large and small particles. Donaldson Endurance filters accomplish this by having two kinds of media. A surface media that captures larger particles and holds them above the fine media that is below. These filters start out a bit higher in air restriction then a standard pleated media filter but over time it is less restrictive in the passage of air over its life due to its design.

From any research I have done neither Cat nor Donaldson recommends any blowing out of final air filters given there is no reasonable way to keep all that dust that has been collected on the exterior from now getting on the intake side of the filter while "blowing it out" from the inside. That practice allows dirt to get into the intake of your engine when you put it back in service. Best practice and what is recommended is to just replace a dirty filter. This is a Donaldson guide on air filter service and use...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2HViIGDeQ

Later Ed

[Mike Groves]

Ouch Ed, last time I did my general engine maintenance, I had the tech visually check the filter.  Now I know that wasn't the right thing to do from watching the video.

so far so good as I've put many miles on the engine since August but I'll know better next time.  The filter did pass the visual inspection however with flying colors as it looked new after 2 years.

Mike

[Edward Buker]

Mike,

I think that there may be times when you might pull a filter and inspect it when you think there may be an issue. Their point is that the pressure indicator is probably your better guide. How a filter physically looks dirt wise, is less important then what the restriction indicator pressure reading is telling you.

One point that is rarely mentioned is that when you check that indicator as part of your normal maintenance check it should not change much over time, except if you are traveling on dirt or dusty roads. If the pressure indicator ever went lower during the filter life I would want to immediately check the system and inspect it all from end to end given the possibility that a filter may have failed or some piping or clamp may have come loose so that your are no longer seeing the normal restriction level of the filter system. The system would then be allowing contamination into the air intake system.

As part of your maintenance, like checking your oil, you should reset the indicator and see that after driving it goes back to the previous restriction level. This is a peak vacuum measurement device that will hold that high value and not tell you if your system now has a lower vacuum level without resetting it. You do this by pressing on the bottom of the indicator gauge if it is one of the typical color coded vacuum units.

Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Jeff Watt]

I'll add my 2 cents to this discussion (and it is worth that much). I concur with Lee and Ed and have communicated with them and others on the (baffling) issue of the filter on the C13 (model year 2007). I don't think that the engine is held back as I too see high 40s of boost. I do wish for more power, especially when merging or stop light drags, but then again it is 40000lbs.

The issue I have is with the filter minder and the whole is the filter dirty or not problem. This past fall I replaced a filter because it was 2 years old and had less than 10000 miles on it. Filter minder said it was near full. Took it out and while there certainly was dirt in it there was also a lot of white paper element left (Donaldson filter).

So I replaced the filter minder as it always showed 1/2 or more full and also replaced the filter. On initial replacement the minder showed over 1/2 full - reset it a couple of times and now with 4000 miles on it shows 3/4 full.

I do have a few miles of gravel to get home but certainly nothing that should compromise the filter. Nevertheless I'll likely end up replacing the filter in a year at probably 6000 miles for another $200+.

It just frustrating not knowing how dirty the filter actually is and whether to replace it.

Jeff



 

[David T. Richelderfer]

Jeff -  I too changed the Filter Minder on our coach.  It showed near the "red line" before I cleaned the cleanable air filter (AFE wet oil).  After cleaning the filter, the Filter Minder showed the same reading.  I subsequently installed a new Filter Minder and the new one showed a reading near the "green line."  My assumption is the original Filter Minder was "broken."