close out problem

[Keith Moffett]

When we got this coach there was a substancial air leak.  It was traced to the close out air manifold and I just got one and replaced the old.  The air system now holds good pressure but the close out gets stuck in the out position.  The only way to retract it was to release all the air from the system.

Also, the old unit was very hot (couldnt touch it) on the selenoid and left a black outline on the wall in the electric bay.  I have checked and the new unit isnt getting hot at all but it makes me think that this could have started burning very easily.  This may be a good safety check for many coaches.  

Any ideas on the close out would be appreciated.
Thanks
Keith

[Gerald Farris]

Keith,
Does the retract problem happen will either closeout switch or just one?

Gerald

[Keith Moffett]

In the Patriot the closeout  floor slid out if either switch was in the on position and retracted if either switch was reversed.  Is that proper?

The switches have no effect on the close out in any position or combination.  The red adjustment screw on the new manifold will activate the close out both directions regardless of the switches.

Checking the voltage on the manifold (relay?).  The top two connectors are ground and the bottom spade connector reads 13.6 V if both switches are off or both on.  Otherwise it reads 2ma.

I suspect the new manifold is defective because the adjustment screw  stops the release of air i pressure is applied otherwise it will bleed the air system completely.

What is the right way for this to work?

Thanks
Keith

[Roy Warren Co-Admin]

On our 2005 PT, the slide out works from either position and can be retracted from either position, no matter which one initiates it.  It has been that way since new, so I would suspect that is proper operation.  

[Keith Moffett]

Thanks Roy
I believe that means that if one switch is 'ON' and the other 'OFF'  The close out should be retracted.  With both switches ON or OFF together it would be extended.
This begins to make some sense as this is the only way I get power to the controler (both ON or both OFF).

I can adjust the controler so that the floor slides out but it wont release when switches are ON/OFF.

Thanks All
Keith

[Edward Buker]

Keith,

It would make sense that either switch could initiate the opening of the floor slide out and that either could maintain that position by being in the on position. I think both would have to be in the off or retract position to get the floor slide to retract. That electrically makes sense to me. I do not have a schematic of the wiring and air solenoid valving  and luckily have not had to go there. If someone has a good diagram and schematic of this part of the coach I would be happy to take a look and see what I can figure out.

A guess would be an air solenoid valve where the air pressure is directed through one outlet or another by the switch position. It would be likely that the power is required for the air solenoid valve to extend the floor slide to the closed position and that air flow required for the opposite direction would be without power given that is the normal position while the coach is at rest. You would not want to consume power while at rest. I envision an air cylinder with two pressure feeds, one at each end to drive the piston and the floor slide direction. That would mean two single pole single throw switches wired in parallel would be all that would be needed. This is all a guess, so it may be way off the mark...

Later Ed

[Keith Moffett]

Ed
Thanks for the input.  This is totaly different than in the Patriot we had.
I see that you also have the 2002 Marquis.  Is your air manifold in the electric bay?
There are three white wires on spade connectors going to the (selenoid or relay?) on the manifold.  There is also a red capped air release valve on top and a small red plastic screw built in the side for adjustment.
The top two wires one is marked ground and the other is a jumper over to the first (ground) wire.
The third wire is just below the others and it has power only when the switches are both on or both off.  This recieves 13.6 V unless the ignition is on when it recieves 14.2 V.
Not only does this seem like alot of voltage, it is a real power draw if one does not know to set the switches oposite each other.

Regardless, I cant make t work in either direction with the switches.  If I adjust the screw it works but when it retracts the air release doesnt shut off and bleeds the air system down.

If yours is the same as mine, could you check the port used on the top air fitting?  There are three openings and the old one had this in the middle so I installed it that way but I know it was removed before.

Thanks
Keith

[Edward Buker]

Keith,

Can you post a photo of the unit, much easier to say it is the same or not if I can see it. This may also allow someone else to have a look also in case my configuration is different.

Later Ed

[Keith Moffett]

Have never done so on this forum.  Ill give it a shot.
Keith

[Edward Buker]

Keith,

I got a few minutes to take a look at my electrical bay. I think I have the same unit as you describe. There is a red button on the top, and a red screw on the side. Coming out of the bottom of the manifold are what appear to be two needle valves and pipes that lead to the close out. The needle valves I am guessing control the speed of the closeout in each direction. Coming out of the top of the manifold is a pipe that leads to some other controller unit that may shut off air with ignition, not sure. There are three wires connected to the unit (see photo), a double ground with a yellow spade lug in the upper position closest to the wall. The lower horizontal blue spade lug also has a wire labeled ground. The upper blue spade lug that is further from the wall is labeled step clsout. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Keith Moffett]

Ed
Sorry it took so long to get back to you.
The picture does look like ours, needle valves and all.  The red 'button' on top is the air release port or at least that is where air bleeds out from.

Here's the rub.  By your description I believe that the yellow spade is ground and against the wall.  The power line goes to the top right spade ad the bottom 'horizontal spade is ground.
That would mean that your yellow connector has a jumper wire going from it to the bottom conector?
Would it be asking too much to have you confirm this because it would mean that mine is wrong.  I would hate to misunderstand and short something out.

I think I got pic's attached right.
Keith

[Edward Buker]

Keith,

That is exactly how mine is wired. The double wire yellow lug against the wall, one wire is a jumper labeled ground, that comes down to the lower horizontal lug.
Later Ed

[Keith Moffett]

Ok, here is the latest
Thanks Ed, you were right.  I swapped the two blue conectors and did a little adjusting and it works like a charm.
There is still 13.2 Volts going to the power lead.  I dont see how this makes any sense as the floor is retracted and the ign. key is off.  So it is a constant power drain?  Also, the small cube in the pictures with the wires attached is getting hot again.

What is your thinking on this?...anyone?

Thanks again Ed and all.
Keith

[Edward Buker]

Keith,

When you design these things you usually have choices of normally on or off solenoids or actuators where the power on condition is optimized so that you use no power when things are supposed to be off. For what ever reason it would seem that this is engineered to use power in the slide open state.

Where there is heat there is power consumed so I guess we found another reason why the batteries in these coaches get discharged. If you have the slide retracted in the off or open position see what happens if you pull the 13.2V powered wire. If the slide stays open we should be able to put a relay in series with that hot wire and use the ignition buss to power it to get rid of this load. If it closes when you pull the wire then we will have to leave it powered. Glad you are in business again....

Later Ed

[Keith Moffett]

Ed
Turns out that i the wire is unplugged the close out extends covering the steps.  So no relay?
My bigger concern is the heat factor.  That little selenoid gets darn hot.  Hot enough that if you put your finger on it for long you might get burned or it seems that way.  This is after just sitting not used close out retracted  for several hours.  The old unit was very hot too.

Would it be too much to ask you to check yours?  Does it feel very hot?  What voltage is it getting?

Sorry to impose but answeres are scarce even at BCS.

Thanks
Keith