Author Topic: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak  (Read 26458 times)

Richard And Babs Ames

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97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« on: July 01, 2010, 01:39:05 AM »
The Hydraulic motor fan is leaking fluid from the front (fan side) under load per two mechanics. Is the seal replaceable or do you have to replace the fan motor. Anyone know the model and brand?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 04:43:30 AM by 14 »

Gerald Farris

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 05:44:25 AM »
I do not know the make and model of your fan motor, but I think that most of the motors in the mid-nineties were Sauer-Danfoss.

Most of the hydraulic fan motors are easily repairable if they have not had a bearing failure, but you will probable have to take the motor to a hydraulic repair shop for service, or at least to get the right parts if you feel qualified to repair it yourself.

Gerald

Gary ENGEN

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 01:50:02 AM »
I've had a similar cooling system problem on my '96 Beaver Patriot. It's pretty much been down for overheating for past 6 months. In that timeframe I've had most everything eliminated except the actual hydraulic fan motor that runs the fan at the side-mounted radiator. I earlier had a leak in the hydraulic hose which sprayed fluid onto my toad. That was fixed by replacing the hose. The Beaver still overheated though. I've had the thermostat checked (okay) , the water pump checked (okay), the radiator removed and cleaned out and reinstalled.....still overheating. Then it was recommended that the problem was probably the "wax-valve" device that apparently controls the speed of the fan (based on engine temperature. That "wax valve" was removed and also found to not be the overheating problem. That pretty much leaves only the hydraulic fan motor to be the culprit. Of course, there is no serial or part number visible on that motor so I had it removed and shipped to the Beaver folks at Beaver Coach Sales & Service in Bend Oregon. They (Loren Cassidy - Service Advisor ( 800-843-2967) & their parts guy) looked it over and could not really identify any replacement part on hand or available. As of this week their suggested solution is a place nearby Bend Oregon that can build another motor to replace the one on my Beaver to the tune of $1900.00. I guess with the transfer of manufacturing/sales from Beaver to Monaco and to whoever purchased Monaco that nobody now really wants to bother with older part replacement.
 So now I have my Beaver RV here in Augusta , GA with the fan motor in Bend Oregon awaiting my decision as to rather I want to have the motor replaced for $1900.00 or try something else. Not many options at this point except to ask any of you Beaver Ambassador Club folks out there if you have any other suggestions or perhaps somebody out there that has a wrecked mid to late 1990's Beaver (300 HP CAT engine) Patriot that has a working fan motor they'd like to get rid of (ha ha...fat chance).
  Any suggestions out there? Perhaps a reliable hydraulics repair place somewhere else would be able to repair the motor for something a lot less that $1900??? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Gary Engen in Augusta, GA
1996 Beaver Patriot, 33' Savannah

Richard And Babs Ames

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2010, 02:07:42 PM »
gengen, Here are some contacts for possible rebuild or seal sources. Mine leaks very little to 190 degrees or so but when it goes under load enough to smoke.  We have oiled the toad twice and blew out about about (est) 2 quarts of fluid in 500 miles  from Ohio to Western NC. Side radiator and cooler are saturated with Dexron and not as efficient but mechanic thinks we can make it back to FL OK  not towing.

I was able to get a shaft seal replaced on a 1991 Baronett fan motor by a mechanic in Arcadia, FL that works mainly off road and he got an upgraded dual seal that was not OEM from Atlanta. It was a couple hours labor plus seal. You might get Beaver Coach Sales to do a google for their area and send the hydraulic motor to them for evaluation or ship it back to you and do it closer to home.

 I also have found that calling a local truck/equiptment  parts dealer from the yellow pages gets good reccomendastions for repair points for mobile diesel mechanics.

These are from a google for  Sauer-Danfoss (US) Company
 
Sauer-Danfoss (US) Company
Florida
e-mail: Contact Us

Other / General
Action Hydraulics
7257 Westport Place, Building B-100
West Palm Beach, Florida
33413
Phone: +1 (561) 640-6066
Fax: +1 (561) 689-1245

Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Action Hydraulics
7541 N.W. 54th Street
Miami, Florida
33166
Phone: +1 (305) 591-7273
Fax: +1 (305) 592-8285

Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Berendsen Fluid Power
Full Line Distributor
1730 West Oak Commons Court
Marietta (Georgia), Florida
30062
Phone: +1 (770) 419-3430
Fax: +1 (770) 419-3439

Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Distributor

Hydro/Power Inc.
4530 N.E. 35th Street
Ocala, Florida
34479
Phone: +1 (352) 236-3466
Fax: +1 (352) 236-1255

Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Sunsource
Full Line Distributor
5390 East Ponce de Leon, Suite E
Stone Mountain (Georgia), Florida
30083
Phone: +1 (770) 491-6900
Fax: +1 (770) 414-9827

Distributor

Richard And Babs Ames

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2010, 01:41:38 PM »
Some GA service points.

General Inquiries
Sauer-Danfoss (US) Company
Georgia
e-mail: Contact Us

Other / General
Berendsen Fluid Power
Full Line Distributor
1730 West Oak Commons Court
Marietta, Georgia
30062
Phone: +1 (770) 419-3430
Fax: +1 (770) 419-3439

Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Distributor

Power Systems Of Georgia, Inc.
Work Function Distributor
805 McFarland Road
Alpharetta, Georgia
30004
Phone: +1 (770) 475-1680
Fax: +1 (770) 442-5522

Distributor
Sunsource
Full Line Distributor
5390 East Ponce de Leon, Suite E
Stone Mountain, Georgia
30083
Phone: +1 (770) 491-6900
Fax: +1 (770) 414-9827

Distributor
Advanced Fluid System
751 Hurricane Shoals Road
Lawrenceville, Georgia
30043
Phone: (770) 963-6164
Fax: (770) 995-3477

Authorized Service Center /

Arden Smith

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 08:59:18 PM »
Maybe I can shed some light to this issue. I taught industrial hydraulics for many years although I don't claim to be an expert.
The reason most hydraulic motors leak oil around the shaft seal is that they usually have too much internal leakage. (bypassing oil around the internal parts, much akin to blowby in piston engine rings created by internal wear usually caused by dirty oil.) No filtration on this oil or not changing the oil filter often enough when it is dirty.
Another reason for leakage is the shaft seal has been cooked by heat and is no longer pliable. Most of the causes for the shaft seal to be cooked is that the hydraullic motor has internal leakage and this bypassed oil is given up as heat which gets the hydraulic motor and case hot enough to cook the seal causing it to be brittle, wearing the seal lip down and or cracking the seal material. All hydraulic devices have a certain amount of internal leakage that is acceptable but excess is due mostly to wear caused by lack of filtration or dirty oil. A lot of hydraulic motors have three hydraulic lines to the motor, one is the supply from the pump to turn the motor, the second, usually as large as the supply is the return oil to the system and then the third is usually smaller to drain the leakage oil from the case back to the system.

Hydraulic motors are sized by cubic inches of oil used per revolution at a rated pressure.
They are categorized by their internal construction,I.E. gear motor, piston motor, and so on.
They can be interchanged by brand as long as the they are sized to the job being done and can be mounted in place. (Shaft size, Mounting brackets, hose location, cu. in./rev. max speed, etc)
Arden Smith
98 Monterey 36' 3126 300 CAT

Richard And Babs Ames

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2010, 09:09:50 PM »
Mr Smith are the motors rebuildable or do they need to be replace along with the fluid and filter?

Richard And Babs Ames

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 09:20:52 PM »
http://www.precisionfluidpower.com/index.htm link was sent to me on RV.net for fan repair.

Made it home with leak and now my mechanic and time are on my side.

Richard And Babs Ames

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2010, 06:35:45 PM »
Quote from: Gerald Farris
I do not know the make and model of your fan motor, but I think that most of the motors in the mid-nineties were Sauer-Danfoss.

Most of the hydraulic fan motors are easily repairable if they have not had a bearing failure, but you will probable have to take the motor to a hydraulic repair shop for service, or at least to get the right parts if you feel qualified to repair it yourself.

Gerald

My mechanic (now that I am home) agrees and works on a lot of hydraulics and stated they are usually rebuildable and will flush and clean the system while at it. Part of the cause of loss was that I did not change the filter very often.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 07:39:35 PM by 14 »

Gary ENGEN

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2010, 08:23:54 PM »
Thanks for all your leads and info on getting my fan motor from my '96 Beaver Patriot repaired. Here is what I have found out so far. I contacted several of the Sauer Danfoss authorized service centers in the southeast USA and ran in to dead-ends on most but finally got some help at Berendsen Fluid Power, Marietta (Georgia),  (770) 419-3430. A representative there named Stephen was very helpful. He verified that parts were no longer avalable for the motor but he thought that a newer series motor currently being manufactured by Sauer Danfoss may be workable on the Beaver if the 'switch valve" attached to the old fan motor could be used on a newer motor. He called the Ames, Iowa Sauer Danfoss plant and found out that there are two versions of switch motors on the old fan motors and that one attached with 2 bolts would be compatible but the other version that attaches with 3 bolts would not work with the newer motor. A new motor from Sauer Danfoss would cost in the neighborhood of $400- $500 but expected delivery time is 2 months as they do not keep any in stock (must manufacture one from scratch). Although 2 more months is a long time wait, the cost is way below the $1900 quoted to me from the folks out at Bend Oregon. So, now I am calling Beaver Coach Sales & Service again out at Bend, OR (where my fan motor is currently at) and have Matt tell me if it has a switch valve with 2 bolts or 3 bolts attaching it to the motor. If it is the 2 bolt version I'll probably have them ship the motor back to me and also call Stephen at Berendsen Fluid Power and have them order me one of the new motors that will allegedly match the '96 Beaver engine.
 I'll keep you posted on what I find out.
Gary Engen
'96 Beaver Patriot

Arden Smith

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2010, 02:34:52 AM »
Seems as though you got most of your questions answered about rebuilding the hydraulic motor. Sorry I am so late in getting back to this. Yes, Most hydraulic motors are rebuildable with an internal kit, meaning that most of the guts are replaced and use the old case along with replacing the shaft seal in the case. I am going to go on line and see if I can find any info on these motors. Does anyone know what they are rated at? The cubic inches of oil used per revolution and what pressure they are capable of running under? Are they a gear motor, gerotor, inline piston, radial in their internal construction? How are they mounted and what shaft size are they? Is it a splined shaft or keyed? I know this is a lot of questions but it may be helpful to find a new motor to replace it. What kind of switch(valve) is used to turn it on and off. Is the valve electrically controlled?
By the way, Did the old motor work, just leaking oil around the shaft seal or did you have heating problems that made you suspect the motor being bad?
This could go on and on. Again I will try to get some answers by going on line and seeing if I can find some motors.
Arden Smith
98 Monterey 36' 3126 300 CAT

Arden Smith

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 02:54:27 AM »
/www.surpluscenter.com
Look under this site and check out the motors. I have their catalog and found several Sauer-Danfoss motors that are designed for vehicle fan cooling operations. One is Model no. MN219-RAE06AS080 and by its appearance you might want to look at Sundstrand motors as they mount up the same way. A two bolt flange mount. Again to make a change over or to make a selection the cu.in./ rev are needed along with the max operating psi. If you have the time you might want to ask for their free catalog as it shows the details on the motors. Wished I could be of more help, Let me know if you need more help and maybe we can get on the phone to talk it out.
Arden Smith
98 Monterey 36' 3126 300 CAT

Arden Smith

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2010, 04:05:12 AM »
http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/l1022962.pdf
http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/l1022491.pdf
Here are two sites that may give you some good information on fan cooling drive systems. You might use these to find out what you have and how to replace it.  
Arden Smith
98 Monterey 36' 3126 300 CAT

Gary ENGEN

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 10:32:17 PM »
Arden:
  Thanks for your links to fan motor repair/replacement possibilities. You had asked what led me to thinking my fan motor was bad. No, the motor was not leaking but the engine was overheating badly. I think I outlined the sequence of my problems in an earlier post but when mine first started overheating it appeared to be due to a leak of hydraulic fluid in the hose that is at very back of engine compartment that goes to the fan motor. The leak sprayed fluid onto my toad and I replaced the hose and fixed that problem.  There never has been any leakage noted from the fan motor itself. But then the engine started overheating again and finally I had to slow down to 50 mph or even less to keep the check engine light from popping on and the engine from cutting out. I initially brought it to a large Caterpillar repair facility in Tampa, FL while on a trip nearby as I feared I could not make it back to Augusta , GA. The CAT experts checked out the thermostat and the water pump (all okay) then decided that the radiator needed cleaning out so that was taken off and serviced at a radiator specialist but after that it still overheated. The CAT "experts" were undecided what to do next and were trying to get proper fan speed RPM info from Lazy Days folks in Tampa when I decided I needed to get the rig home. So a long slow drive back to Augusta and back to my local RV dealer/repair facility. Telephone calls with the Beaver Sales people in Bend, OR suggested that the problem could be the thermal wax valve and that we should disconnect the hose to it that goes from the fan motor to the thermal valve, cap it off (by passing the thermal valve) crank the engine and if it did not over heat then it would mean the thermal valve was the culprit. Well.. after a short drive it still overheated so about all that was left that could be the problem causing the overheating was the fan motor itself. By the way, there did appear to be plenty of hydraulic fluid being pushed to the motor by the hydraulic pump motor. So...we removed the fan motor and shipped it to Bend, OR to see if they might have a replacement or at least be able to identify what motor I had and give us some advice from there. That is about where I am at now. I have about made my decision to have the fan motor mailed back to me here in Georgia.  I am told that the switch valve on the fan motor from my '96 Beaver is compatible with a newer fan motor that Berendsen Hydraulics will order for me from the Sauer Danfoss Company. It will take a couple months for all that to happen and around $500 but that should fix the problem. I certainly hope it will as this has had my 'ol Beaver "deadlined" now since around January. :o
Gary Engen
'96 Beaver Patriot Savannah
Augusta, GA

Richard And Babs Ames

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Re: 97 Patriot Cooling fan fluid leak
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2010, 01:51:18 PM »
My mechanic is pulling our fan today. I am fairly certain that it has the two bolt switch valve. The mechanic has been trained by CAT and worked at a large CAT dealer in Ft Myers, FL before going  on his own. He seems very experienced on hydraulics. Will post how it works out.