electrical issues

[Keith Cooper]

We pulled into a campground this afternoon in Chattanooga, and found found we are unable to utilize shore power.  Used a voltmeter to determine we are seeing 120v on shore power side of the transfer switch but not on the house side.  Is there anything on the house side, which might trigger this issue, or should I be looking to obtain a replacement transfer switch?
Additional information: When running the generator, gfci power outlets only work.  When using the inverter.  Both roof air units work w or w/o the inverter. Nothing works on shore power.  
Any thoughts as to where to start, or is replacing the transfer switch a good starting point?
This issue is on a 2000 patriot thunder.

[Gerald Farris]

Keith,
There are several issues here. First the transfer switch will not have any effect on the GFCI circuits in the coach when on generator. The transfer switch either connects the coach to power or not and since both A/C units are running when on generator, both legs are connected to the generator power, so that problem is else where.

If you are sure that you have good shore power to the transfer switch with 120V on both hot wires at the transfer switch and no power on the neutral wire at the transfer switch with the generator off and no power in the coach you have a bad transfer switch. However be certain that all of these readings are right, because more good transfer switches are replaced because of bad shore power than any other reason.

Gerald

[Keith Cooper]

Removed the old ES50M-65N power transfer switch and installed a new unit. In diagnosing the old unit, the shore contactor coil tests as open with a vom. at the same time i installed a surge protector (Surge guard # 34560) to protect against low voltage, over voltage, etc in an effort to reduce the possibilty of a reoccurence in the future. That still leaves us with an electrical  problem that I beleive is in the Xantrex inverter/charger. When on shore power we have no voltage at the GFCI outlets unless the inverter is on. The same condition exists when running on the generator. The 30 amp breaker for the inverter/converter is passing approprate AC voltage to the Xantrex box. However I suspect the 30 amp transfer switch in the xantrex has failed. Before I open up the xantrex inverter/charger box are there any special precautions or proceedures required to test or replace the transfer switch?

[Keith Cooper]

Opened the Xantrex box and validated that 120v ac is in fact present on the input side of one of the printed circuit boards. The 30 amp ac transfer switch is not working and even though ac voltage is present the charge led is not lighting The 30 amp button on the fornt of the Xantrex box appears to be defective  .  will call a Xantrex service center in the morning

[Keith Cooper]

Thought I would cirlce back and describe the final resolution of this problem. I removed the The Xantrex inverter/ converter and took it to the nearest Xantrex repair facility in Knoxville. Had called in advance to get an appointment for a repair date and also prepaid for the circuit card to insure it would be available when the work was to be performed. When i got to Knoxville  the appointment time was valid but they did not have the required circuit board. The next day they replaced the card and shipped the unit to our home address,
The unit did in fact, have a bad power transfer relay on the AC board. Once the board was replaced I reinstalled the xantrex and everything seems to be working properly. So in essence I had both power transfer relays in the coach fail which created my initial situation.  Can't help wondering if I might have in some way triggered this problem.
On a seperate note, it is unfortunate that Xantrex is not willing to provide parts or circuit cards thru their service centers. A new AC circuit board is $359 and labor for removal and replacement of the board was approximately $150. I requested the defective circuit board since there is no exchange and the power transfer relay is their most common failure.  Unfortunately the defective card was not returned with the unit.

[Keith Cooper]

The recent problems we had with the main power transfer relay and the power transfer relay within the Xantrex forced me to take a closer look at how all of the circuitry is tied together.
Here are some of my conclusions:
The Xantrex remote panel can only monitor or  impact the circuits which are tied thru the inverter converter, not all circuits into the coach. Therefore the only values which may actually impact current flow thru the inverter/converter are the 5A, 15A and 20A settings. All other settings will assume full power to the inverter/converter and achieve the same results. The Xantrex remote panel which displays the various voltage settings for limiting input voltage is slaved off the  Xantrex inverter/converter. Shore power is actually wired thru the 50 amp power transfer relay first. That power transfer relay is intended to provide service either via shore power or the genset. From the primary power transfer relay, the house wiring  is connected to the 50 amp panel in  the coach. The 30 amp inverter is actually slaved to the 50 amp panel thru a 30 amp breaker. The AC output leg of the Xantrex inverter ties to 3 separate AC circuits which feed most of the GFCI circuits in the coach, the AC lights, Bose sound system, and the AC side of the Fantastic vents used to run the fan motors.  
The remaining major appliances (air conditioning units, washer dryer, water heater circuits,   refrigerator and a single outlet in the dining area) are all on their own circuit breakers and not tied thru the Xantrex inverter/converter. Therefore, current flow to those circuits is not impacted by any settings on the Xantrex remote.
The power transfer relay in the Xantrex is used to switch between the external AC input and the inverter. The interesting thing about the Xantrex power transfer relay is that it is designed to support two separate 30 amp inputs and feed two separate AC output legs. In our 2000 Patriot Thunder coach there is only one input and one output leg used. If and/ or when we encounter another Xantrex failure I will rewire to circuit 2. This action assumes the problem is due to pitted contacts on the power transfer relay If that doesn’t resolve the issue the next step would be to replace the power relay (Deltrol Controls 375TM 3PDT) or as a last resort take the inverter/converter to an authorized Xantrex service center and spend the $350 for the AC circuit board + labor for removal and re-installation.
Hope this helps anyone else dealing with these problems.

[Karl Welhart]

Keith,

Very interesting discussion....  I did not have issues with my ProSine 2000 unit like yours, but did find several loose lugs and one detacted neutral lead in my transfer switch.  Perhaps the Xantrex problems are related to issues casued by loose lugs on the power transfer switch.  Anyway, these are things we should all check regularly.  I did have firmware problems (would not reset) with my ProSine unit early on, but got it replaced under warranty twice.  Have not had any problems since then.

Thanks very much,

Karl

[Edward Buker]

Keith, very good and informative post. Nice to know there are an extra set of contacts available in the Xantrex and the relay number. May be worth dividing the current with a jumper and using both contact sets, they will last longer. Thanks for the insight.

Later Ed

[Gil_Johnson]

FWIW, in the marine industy the Xantrex brand has been bashed for a few years now.  They moved manufacturing to the far east, like many others have done.  This resulted in quality issues.

BTW, I thought the amperage settings where solely for the maximum charging current and had nothing to do with inverter output.  This is an important setting when you are power limited, such as only having a 30A feed when your coach is configured for 50A (actually 2 times 50A).  On my Magnum charger inverter I set the maximum charge rate to something just above my 12V current draw.  It takes longer to charge the batteries, but leaves more power for other systems.

Gil
08 Contessa

[Larry Fisk]

I also noticed the max charge amp on my Xantrex is 30 amps. I just figured all the 50 amp appliances were wired direct and not through the inverter.

[Gil_Johnson]

Larry,

Your inverter is likely limited to 30A.  In many coaches, I hope all, there are circuit breakers on the output of the inverter for those outlets/appliances that are supported through or off of the inverter.  On my coach Beaver did a really good job on AC wiring.  I have a 50A panel that includes the 30A breaker for the input to the inverter/charger I then have a seperate 30A panel for the inverter controlled outleys and appliances.  BTW, the charge amperage has little to do with AC devices powered through or by the inverter.  The charge amperage is the power dedicated to charging your batteries.

Gil
08 Contessa

[Keith Cooper]

Gil,
as a matter of information our coach did not have a 30A sub-panel on the output of the inverter. When I removed the inverter for repairs I found the three output circuits were tied together with twist-on connectors. to simplify the re-installation process and provide a single point for circuit testing in the future I installied a 12 position terminal block which terminates all of the circuits. In addition, I dont paricularly like the lack of a subpanel on the output of the inverter so I ordered and am waiting on a Blue Sea Systems AC distribution panel #8043.
Didn't mention this before because the subpanel I am installing is a bit of overkill. the following is a link to one of the suppliers which offers the sub-panel ( http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=17450&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10109&subdeptNum=10598&classNum=10601 )

[Gil_Johnson]

Keith, using marine products, especially those from Blue Sea, is always a good thing.  You pay a premium, especially if buying from West Marine.  That permium gets you something intended for some pretty harsh and corrosive environments.  I know that if I every have to replace the overly complex battery charging electronics for my two battery banks I'll be using a Blue Sea automatic battery charger--a much smaller integrated solution.  BTW, try defender.com, if you haven't already ordered the panel.

Gil

[Larry Fisk]

Thanks Gil for all the great information. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to all of this. You are correct, I do have a 30 amp panel and a separate 50 amp panel. Looks like my Xantrex is limited to 30 amps.