Cold Engine Start

[Ron Johnson]

We have been in Denver for a week where it was 18F today when I tried to start the engine. The chassis batteries are new and fully charged; I used the boost from the house bank; the Hurricane was on therefore circulating heating fluid around the whole system including I am thinking warming the engine . I did not have the engine preheat switch on [my understanding of this is that this simply turns the Hurricane circulating pump on so if the Hurricane is already on it is redundant to have this switch on].

I cranked the engine for 5 seconds or so when it coughed and sputtered and tried to start whereupon I let go of the key switch and the engine died. I waited 5 minutes and tried again with the same result after which there was no response from anything when I turned the key so .. we don't have to leave 'til Monday when it is forecast to be a little warmer .. 24F. If possible I would like the correct procedure for cold starting as I'll only get one or 2 chances to start the engine on Monday.

I am thinking I should have let it crank longer until it had actually fired before I let the key go?? AM I right in thinking in this situation the 'preheat' switch does nothing?? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Joel Ashley]

Can't speak precisely to a Hurricane, because we have a HydroHot, Ron.  But we have a switch as part of the that system that has to be on to circulate warm fluid through the engine.  Engine coolant automatically exchanges heat into the HydroHot while the engine runs, to cut down on the HydroHot' demand on diesel fuel, but not vice versa.  Flipping on the preheat switch kicks in a pump in the HydroHot that pushes warmed coolant through the engine.  You can watch the engine temp. come up on the Aladdin, but it takes awhile, so start well in advance of planned engine start - often an hour or two, depending on how cold it is out.  I prefer to get the temp up to 80 degrees or more before starting.

There is also an engine heater switch at the driver's seat area, but it requires an extension cord plugged into a dedicated male plug in the engine compartment.  I've never had occasion to use that, and I understand there are special considerations.

I also don't let off the ignition cranking until the engines fires and feels like it's turning on its own.  When cool, that can take quite a bit of cranking.  Ditto for the genset. 

Joel

[Edward Buker]

Joel is correct, if this works like other boiler arrangements, like an Aquahot in these RVs. Preheat turns on the pump that sends the heated coolant through the engine jacket. At those temps and with the thermal mass of the engine, 45 minutes would not be too long, maybe more for preheat. Holding down the battery bank coupling switch for 1 minute before cranking and while cranking at these temps would be a help. Holding the key longer would help in that period where not all the cylinders have fired yet, just some. You should not have to wait 5 minutes given the starter is very cold at these temps and will not tend to overheat. You may benefit by cranking again in a few seconds given some cylinders were already firing, you just have to get the rest to "get on board"....

Later Ed

[Fred Brooks]

          Ron,
    The owners manual states on page 18 the following concerning the engine "Preheat switch": The ENGINE PREHEAT switch is used to pump engine coolant through a heater exchanger to preheat the engine. The switch works in conjunction with the "Coach Heating" switch. The Hurricane's coolant is pumped through the heat exchanger and its heat is transferred to the engine coolant. Both the ENGINE PREHEAT and the hurricane remote switches must be ON to preheat the engine.
    On page 19 of the owners manual concerning the COACH HEATING switch it states the following: The COACH HEATING switch located on the side console activates the Hurricane hydronic heating circulation pump. The COACH Heating switch is used only to provide heat using the engine as the heat source. This switch should always be turned off when the engine is not running or when it is not being used in conjunction with the ENGINE PREHEAT SWITCH. Turn on the heat exchanger fans and set the thermostat to a comfortable temperature in the desired zones to warm the coach. For more information on this system please read the Hurricane section of this manual.
     I have not had the opportunity to try this yet on my coach yet but my understanding is after reading the manual is to turn on the Hurricane, set the T-stat, turn on the interior heat fans and turn on the PREHEAT and COACH HEATING switches and wait about 2 hours and monitor the progress on the Alladin.  Regards, Fred

[Mike Groves]

I did have the opportunity to try the preheat on my coach before taking out the Hurricane, and the purpose is to pump engine antifreeze through the HOT HURRICANE.  Otherwise only the antifreeze currently in the loop in the HURRICANE would be heated and it wouldn't move anywhere.  So, do leave the HURRICANE on, and then turn on the PRE-HEAT switch.  Then you can monitor and watch your engine temperature rise on your dash or Engine Monitoring display if you have one.  As far as I know once the engine starts then the "water pump" allows the antifreeze to be circulated through the HURRICANE, but it appears, based on the manual Fred has quoted, you do leave the preheat on if you want coach heat.  I've tended to turn mine off after starting the engine and I believe my engine does allow circulation to the HURRICANE (mine is now an Oasis but same thing) via its own water pump.  However, I guess it can not hurt to leave the pump on as long as the suction/discharge direction is the same as that which is caused by the engine water pump.

Bottom line, I don't think you're engine is warm enough and that's the problem - let it preheat.

Mike

[Joel Weiss]

The OP has a Patriot Thunder, not a Marquis, and some of what you're describing he doesn't have.  His Hurricane has ONE dashboard switch and it says something like Engine Preheat.  Turning it on will turn on the circulating pump but there's no Aquastat associated with the liquid being circulated.  Therefore, if none of the coach thermostats are calling for heat the Hurricane will remain off and the circulating liquid will just get colder as heat is transferred to the engine block. 

As a result, the only use I've ever found for this switch has been to use it to circulate the liquid while driving so the coach can be heated without the Hurricane burner being on.

The PT's have an engine block heater in the back that can be plugged into an extension cord.  On a PT there are no inside switches relating to it.  Just plug it in and wait several hours; the engine should be fine.  I don't know of any special considerations about using the heater but I'm not sure there is any thermostat on it so I wouldn't use it for more than a couple of hours.

I'm most concerned about the OP's comment that the last time he turned the ignition key there was no response.  I'm not sure what would have happened to have cause this.

Here's the Caterpillar document dealing with cold weather starting: https://safety.cat.com/cda/files/715418/7/Cold+Weather+Recommendations+For+all+Machines.pdf 

Down to 15 degrees F the engine shouldn't need any assistance in starting, but the OP was right at the margin so it's not surprising that he had an issue.  Heating the engine block should help.

[Dave Atherton]

Ron Johnson, looking at your above post and you mentioned engine would fire after cranking starter for a while. I would suggest after you follow up on your heating sysrtem replys on hard starting
to go next to the fuel system. On your C-12 there is a check valve located on bottom right side
of your secondary fuel filter base on engine. Problem check valve is not holding and is letting fuel
back. When trying to start engine, the fuel transfer pump located on the front lower corner is pumping
air instead of fuel. There is a update on this check valve. I have posted this before as it is a problem
starting to pop up on C-12 engines. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

[Ron Johnson]

Thank you so much for all your replies. Joel Weiss is right in his comments about the 'Preheat' switch on this coach and I also had no idea this Coach had a block heater. I'll go out and look for it in the engine compartment but in case I have problems finding it Joel [Joel Weiss] could you point me to a specific location? Dave if I have more difficulties I'll be back to you about your suggestion. Thanks to all again!

[Joel Weiss]

The power cord for my engine heater is on the left side and hangs from a hook underneath "the stuff" on that side.  Tomorrow, after our winds die down a bit I can send you a photo if you still need it.

Joel

[Jerry Emert]

These beasts are so different.  I also wonder if I have an engine heater.  I see some have rear start switches and I don't have that so it's tough to figure out!  Just my 2 cents.  Have a great day.
Jerry

[Joel Weiss]

Yours is a "Monaco Beaver" whereas ours are SMC's.  There's no reason to expect them to be the same.

[Larry Dedrick]

Ron:
       Just to add another point, you can check your engine temp by referring to your Aladin. This will give you an indication how well your Hurricane is bringing up your Eng temp. You may have to turn your key to the accessory position to get this readout.

                 Larry D

[Larry Fritz]

Ron: I want to share some very cold weather starting experiences that I have had. I am lucky as mine has always started but not always easily. I have had this coach for 15 years and been in many very cold situations.

First, I have a 98 Patriot with the CAT 330 with the air inlet heater only. No block heater or the heating that you can use in newer coaches.

Second, I have successfully started my engine between -3 degrees and +15 degrees many times but not necessarily easily!

Third, I got a good tip from the old CAT RV  hot line. When you turn the ignition key on, the engine preheat light comes on. When the light goes out then turn the key off and turn it on again and it will go through another cycle. (I have used as many as four cycles) before trying to start.

Fourth, If you can get the generator to start, (even if plugged into 50A shore power) then start it and run it for an hour or so.  This will top off the Chassis batteries. Every fraction of a volt makes a difference in really cold weather below 15 degrees.

Fifth, If you cannot get the generator to start, then (on my older 98 now!) if you move the ignition switch to the CCW position, it jumpers both coach and chassis batteries. Then your 50A shore power is providing the maximum power boost to your Chassis batteries while you are cranking CAT to start. This gets you the maximum volts available and every 0.1V helps. (I lived in Minneapolis for 3 years and I know!)  Remember when you go to start, the switch goes CW and you loose that jump feature. Be sure to hold down the JUMP switch on the left console for all starting.  (Newer coaches are wired differently)

Sixth, The best of all worlds is if you can get your generator going first before starting the CAT. Let it run and you will find the extra amps and volts extremely helpful.

Seventh, Once the engine starts the engine preheat light usually comes back on and in fact I have seen it stay on for over 5 minutes before the light goes out.  If that happens, it is colder that you think.

Eight, I have several outdoor thermometers in my coach in different spots. Before I try anything when it is cold, I check them when I get up and figure out in advance what my starting plan will be.  Once you understand it, it is works well.

Ninth, If you are not in a campground with 50A or 30A power, another option is to start your generator every 2-3 hours for and hour or so OR just run the gen overnight (I usually do that) and you will be assured of full batteries.  The 7.5KW Onan's take about 1/2 gallon of diesel fuel per hour if the load is light to modest as this is.

I hope some of this is useful info especially to newer members who are buying the older coaches.

Larry Fritz

[Joel Weiss]

Larry's comments are good, with the exception of the fact that the C-12 doesn't have engine preheat (glow-plugs).  I'm not sure how it avoids the need for them, but, to my knowledge, it doesn't have any.  It sure doesn't have any dashboard lights that would normally relate to them.

[Jerry Emert]

Yours is a "Monaco Beaver" whereas ours are SMC's.  There's no reason to expect them to be the same.

Worse than that Joel, mine is a mixture of SMC and Monaco.  Mostly SMC Magnum chassis, levelers to the axle and such.  And a tag.  I don't really know what to call it most of the time.  But what I expect, Joel, is to see what y'all have and go through with Beavers and your Safari Beavers and try to see how it compares to my Monaco Beaver so it shortens my learning curve.  Thank you for your help!
Jerry