What is using all my electricity?

[Keith Oliver]

I am an experienced boater (over 35 years).  Brand new to a 98 Beaver.  I thought the learning curve would be manageable.  
So far, I have had dead batteries 3 times.  I have owned the Beaver only since March 11th.  It seems that every time I think everything is turned off and leave the coach for a few days, when I return, the batteries have been sucked down.  There doesn't seem to be any master switch, or if there is, I just haven't found it.  
This coach has a Heart Freedom 20 with a remote panel above the Driver. The remote panel has a on/off, but the lights on it don't change if that switch is moved.  Why is the switch there if it doesn't do anything?  Likewise the switches by the door, the one called "coach" and the one for the step don't seem to do anything.  The step sometimes works with the switch in the off position, and usually works with the switch in the on position.  The front ceiling light comes on when the "coach" switch is pushed and the ceiling light switch is in the on position, but pushing the "coach" switch again doesn't turn that light off.  At least pushing it a few times did nothing, but persistently pushing it eventually did turn the light off.  What could that be about?
The first time the batteries were down, jumping from my car was enough to get the genset running, but even after generating for a few hours, there wasn't enough juice to start the CAT.  In fact trying to start the CAT killed the genset.  I ended up putting in new start batteries.  Then I had to leave it for almost 3 weeks, without being plugged in, and sure enough the start batteries were flat again.  This time jumping from the car got us going and we were good till we got to my house, where I plugged into 15 amp service.  After 5 days, I went to start up today and found not enough juice in either the starts or all batteries combined.  What is going on!
Plugging into 15 amps should be more than enough to keep the batteries up.  Especially with solar panels on the roof.  Especially since everything was turned off.  Or was it?
Has anyone had any of these experiences and solved it?  I would like to hear from you.

[Gerald Farris]

Keith,
Your coach has two battery systems, the house (coach) batteries and the chassis batteries. The house batteries (4 six volt golf cart batteries) are recharged by the solar panels, the inverter, or the engine alternator when the engine is running. The house batteries power all of the 12V systems inside the coach. The chassis batteries (2 12V batteries) are recharged by the engine alternator only unless you have an auxiliary charger like an Echo Charger. The chassis batteries supply the current to start and operate the coach engine and generator.

You did not give any indication how much your inverter was charging your house batteries when you were plugged in to 120V AC. Are you sure that the inverter charger was turned on so that it would charge the house batteries. Do you have an Echo Charger and if so is it working? If not there was nothing charging the chassis batteries unless the coach engine is running.

The coach engine computer will use enough 12V current from the chassis batteries to completely discharge them in 2 or 3 weeks just maintaining it's keep alive memory. So you will need a charging method or you will need to disconnect the chassis batteries.

If this does not make sense to you, or you need to discuss it further, call me. My phone number is in the directory and in Beaver Tales. I am the Region 4 VP.

Gerald  

[Keith Moffett Co-Admin]

Keith, we also have a '98.  We had a similar problem, tough to find but an easy fix.  Seems that the battery tray in motion work hadrens the cable connectors over time.  One wire in the connector was bad and so when I cleaned the contacts I thought the maintenance was done.  A new connector was needed and solved the intermittant problem.
Congrats on the new rig.
Keith and Carol Moffett

[Keith Oliver]

Gerald:

I have an echo charger.  With an echo charger, I expected the start batteries to maintain a charge while plugged in to the 15 amp service, but after 5 days those batteries were flat. On 15 amps, I don't know if any charge is getting to the echo charger.
I saw something in one of the  (very few) papers in the coach, so I have been operating under the theory that the solars were only for the house batts.  Thanks for confirming that.
The inverter occasionally reads some charge, (I saw as much as 6o amps) while plugged in to 30 or 50 amp service, but mostly reads 0.  This even when there wasn't enough juice to start the engine, while combining the batteries.  I don't know whether the inverter switch (inside) should be in the on pos or the off pos, as the lights on the panel don't change.
At this point I am looking for a marine style "off" for the start batteries, so as to avoid frequent flat conditions.

Keith:
I will check the connections in the battery compartment later today.  Thanks for the heads up.  
Other than this electrical issue, our "new"  coach is a real treat.  generally in "like new"' condition, except for window seals, which I see from many posts can be dealt with relatively easily.  We lost a Dometic AC cover on the drive up, so replaced both.  That and other minor bits of sunburned plastic will all get renewed before our first big trip, this fall, so by then we should be ready to show off our "New" coach. Inside, the "like new" condition is throughout the coach.
Still looking for a suitable name for the new "Beaver".  This isn't like the boating world, where the name is everything.  Having "Beaver" in the name also presents some challenges.
Our boat is "Retreat" and is where we will be for the summer.

[Ron Morgan]

Keith,
We have a '98 Patriot and have had the same problems. I replaced all of the batteries, both coach and chasis, and still lost the charge in the chasis batteries after a few weeks in our winter spot. I called the service dept in Bend and was told that there is enough drain on the system to bring down the chasis batteries in a few weeks. There is a switch to cut off all power to the house,but not a switch to cut off the chasis batteries. I had a switch installed on the chasis side and I turn it off when the motor home is parked for more than a day. I have not had any problems since. The engine has started without problems several times after being parked for more than a week.

[Keith Oliver]

Ron:

Thanks for your input.  Now I will hasten the installation of an "off" switch on the chassis batteries.  I will put it in the battery bay, as close to the batteries as possible.  I expect it will need to be wired onto the + side of both start batteries, and that a marine style rotating switch will do the job.
What kind of switch did you use?

[Gerald Farris]

Keith,
From your reply, it sounds like you need to have your inverter looked at. If the inverter is not charging the house batteries, the Echo Charger will not function. The Echo Charger only turns on and starts charging the chassis batteries when it senses 13V or above in the house batteries. So if the house batteries are not being charged, the chassis batteries are not being charged.

You need to take a volt meter and check the voltage at both battery banks. If the house batteries are below 13V the Echo Charger green light will flash and indicate that it is not charging. When the house batteries are above 13V the green light will be on steady, and if the inverter is charging the house batteries they will be at least 13.3V. If the light is not on at any time, you have a bad input fuse or a bad Echo Charger. If the light is on steady and the chassis batteries are not being charged, you have a bad output fuse or a bad Echo Charger. The Echo Charger fuses are 20A glass automotive fuses that are inline a few inches from the Echo Charger and are prone to failure. If you need to know any more about your Echo Charger the owner's manual is located here:   http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Accessories/Auxiliary-Battery-Charger/Echo-charge-OwnerGuide(445-0204-01-01).pdf

You can also find the owner's manual for your inverter on the Xantrex website. My coach came with a marine style rotating cut off switch that I never use, because if the inverter and Echo Charger are functioning properly, it is never needed unless the coach is stored inside without an electrical connection, and that never happens with my coach.

Gerald

[JimCasazze]

Keith,
Congrats on your new land yacht.  I'm a boater also and figured much the same as you... shouldn't be too much of a learning curve for a boat on wheels.  WRONG!  While many systems are similar, Beaver has put many things on their rigs that I'd not ever dealt with on any of my floating toys (including "Miss Teak" - a 48' ketch rigged sailboat).

We have a '99 Patriot Thunder and I've left her unattented and NOT plugged in for 3-4 weeks with no problems (so far).  I don't know why the chassis batteries would discharge so quickly.  I know Gerald stated that the engine ECU will use power - and I'm sure he is correct about that, but it seems your draw is considerably more excessive.  

My rig apparently had some "specialists" working on it prior to my purchase in January.  I am slowly finding and fixing their handywork.  So far, I've found some incorrect re-wiring of the AC, fans, and radio.   Perhaps someone wired something to the chassis batteries?

I do have a "coach power" switch as well as 3 other switches near the exit door.  The coach switch is a press once "on" press again "off" type switch, rather than a rocker On/Off type.  On press and all house stuff goes out, including the AC and Heater controls and thermostats.  The step switch was a bit confusing at first.  I'd turn it off and expect the step to stay put, but it didn't.  I soon learned that if the engine is running the step will go in and out when the door is opened and closed, irregardless of the step swtich position.  It sounds like you have have a issue with the coach power switch (or relay) based on your post.  But, I don't know why that would effect your chassis batteries.

In any case, you might want to get an inductive amp probe to check what the amp draw is on the chassis batteries.  Based on the current draw, you might be able to deduce what is using the power so quickly.   I'd expect only milliamps for any ECU (but would have to check that in the Cat sevice manual)  Anything larger than an amp or so shouldn't be present unless something engine/chassis related isn't shutting off.

Just an aside... are you sure your chassis batteries are fully charged?   You may have charging system issues.  Check the serp belt on the cat and the invertor/charger (and echo charger) as others have stated to be sure you are starting with a fully charged system.

Good luck
J

[Keith Oliver]

Gerald:
I will attack with my voltmeter later today.

J:
Thanks for your input.  I think I have the same set of switches by the door.  I just have to get used to them.  especially the "coach power" switch.  It looks like a rocker, but feels like a press, press again.  
My chassis batteries were new on March 17th, when I couldn't get any more juice out of the old ones.  NAPA Industrial, 1150 CCA, x2.  By now, I know they are not fully charged, as they have been dead twice.  I will be following Gerald's advice to trouble shoot in the battery bay and in the inverter bay.
The only evidence of rewiring that I have found so far relates to the trailer wiring that was done to facilitate the sale to me.  It will need to be redone, but after these other priorities are corrected.
Retreat is a C&L 44 trawler with twin Volvo TAMD41s. We had sail until 1994, including a Seabird 37 ketch, before moving to the dark side.

[Ron Morgan]

Keith,

We did in fact use a rotary marine switch. It is mounted in the frame above the batteries. The switch is on the negative side and was not difficult to wire. I had to purchase a new cable to go from the switch to one of the two chasis batteries.

I can only hope that this will solve the problem. I have learned in the short time we have owned our '98 that something is always needing attention. We love our classic old Patriot. The original owner kept it in covered storage and did not use it very much. We have spent 3 months in Florida and will be heading west next week.

[Keith Oliver]

Gerald:
I am getting 13.8v at the coach batteries, and the liquid is bubbling, so a good rate of charge is still going in.  the chassis batteries are 11.4v and no sound of bubbling (can't look into these ones) so no charging happening at the moment.  the echo charger has no green lights. It has ared light (off) marked "overheat".  I checked the fuses, both good.  
I downloaded a Freedom 20 manual.  No help there.  I called Xantrex and the helpful guy there suggested a blown 1/4 amp fuse inside the inverter case.  I took the lid off, but I couldn't find any fuses.  the Inverter was quiet, the fan was still.  
I turned off the switch at the inverter, but that didn't seem to make any difference.  Inside the coach, I turned off the inverter switch and the lights on the remote panel went dark, but when I checked it a few minutes later the lights were back on.  So with both switches in the off position (I went back out to the inverter and checked) the lights were on, showing no charging, (0 amps) but  showing that the inverter/charger is operational, and the voltage is up.
I measured for hooking up a battery off switch today and will go to the marine store tomorrow.  I went to the RV store for same, but what they had was pretty mickey mouse (no offence Mick).
I don't want to install the rotary off switch if any charging is going on, so I will check the voltage again tomorrow before I install.
I now think I have everything off, but the lighted inverter panel is a puzzle.
Any thoughts still welcome.

[Gerald Farris]

Keith,
From your description, you have a bad Echo Charger, and since it is not charging your chassis batteries as it should, the engine computer (ECM) is discharging them.

Echo chargers are fairly inexpensive to replace. I have never had a problem with one except for a bad fuse, however I know of several owners who have had to replace the unit more than once.

Gerald

[Keith Oliver]

Gerald:

I think you are right.  I will be taking the coach in next week for an oil change etc, so I will see if the shop can do a definitive test on it.  Thanks for your insight.
That's enough for tonight, its getting dark.

Keith

[Edward Buker]

Kieth,

I believe thet the engine ECM is wired to be on with the chassis switch in the off position (by passes the switch) with coaches that came with built in chassis battery switches. I believe that was a Cat requirement. It could be for memory backup or for reliability enhancement keeping the unit in a steady state voltage condition or both. If you add a battery switch you will have to decide how the ECM will be wired for your case. It may be better to just forgo the chassis battery switch and just fix the Echo Charger system if you can leave the coach plugged in when not in use.

As a caution the house battery switch should not be turned off with the inverter/charger unit powered on. Always have the battery switch on before plugging the coach into a !20V source. Hope this helps.

Later Ed

[Keith Oliver]

Some progress, more puzzles.

I have an industrial charger on the chassis batteries right now.
I found a book aboard called "Contessa Owner's Supplement", in which there is no mention of an echo charger, but this appears: "NOTE  It is possible to charge the chassis batteries with the house batteries by turning the ignition key counter-clockwise to the auxiliary position.  This should not be done more than two to three hours per week because prolonged use may damage the start boost relay."
Has anyone any experience with this method of charging the start batteries?  does it work if there is an echo charger?  I will still be getting a shop on the repair of this circuit, if in fact it needs anything.

The "Coach power" switch by the door seems to be ok, so the fault that is now keeping coach power off is further down that line.  I took the switch out to check it and found that it is a momentary switch that wil send a pulse of 5v power down an orange coloured wire when pressed.  Where that goes is the present mystery, as the coach power, which I couldn't get to turn off till yesterday, is now off and I can't get it to turn back on.  I even tried shorting past the terminals on the switch, but nothing happened and the power is still off.

I am convinced there were still some draws on both the coach and chassis batteries until I put in a cut-off for the chassis, and the faulty coach system turned off.  now I expect to have lots of juice.  I will be able to drive to a shop, I just won't have any of the interior comforts till that coach power system comes back to life.

If any of you know anything about the coach power circuit, where I can get an electrical diagram for that circuit, or find some place that will understand it, please post.